Denethor vs. Aragorn

[cellurdur]

Denethor would not have surrendered the crown and there probably would have been a civil war. Aragorn with the support of Dol Amroth, Eomer and probably Faramir would have been victorious, but there would have been a terrible cost to Gondor.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Denethor would not have surrendered the crown and there probably would have been a civil war. Aragorn with the support of Dol Amroth, Eomer and probably Faramir would have been victorious, but there would have been a terrible cost to Gondor.

I'd guess Faramir would be on Aragorn's side. He was a good man and truely understood the importance of the King and his (and his father's) position in Gondor.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know that Denethor would have withheld the crown if Aragorn had the support of the nobles especially his heir and Imrahil. As soon as Denethor died they would cede authority anyway. I shuspect that the sensee of honour that meant the stewards did not claim kingship would have held in the end. However I suspect for Denethor hope and despair really were akin and he could no more cope with a victory forseen as defeat. I suspect he would have taken the same route out.

[Belegorn]

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

I would think Faramir might be on that Council as well, I've got to check. I'm not sure if the Steward's had their heirs on the the Council or not, certainly I'd think the Lord of Dol Amroth would be there, and maybe even non-Dunedain from other provinces who were the Lords thereof.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

Read what I said again. They rejected his claim on the basis of being Isildur's heir. However, when Arvedui makes the claim as Elendil's heir the council have no reply.

'To this Gondor made no answer'.

The council had no way of refuting this claim, because Elendil was held in such a high regard they would not remove him from the succession. Consequently as long as Elendil was the first king of Gondor then any heir of Elendil would be in the succession.

After this there is never any dispute that Arvedui has a valid claim, but they choose Earnil, who himself admits it was also due to the needs of Gondor and not just a matter of law.

' He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he had received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and NEEDS of the South-Kingdom.

Denethor would not give up the throne, but the Council would be breaking the law by rejecting Aragorn's claim.