Denethor vs. Aragorn

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

Read what I said again. They rejected his claim on the basis of being Isildur's heir. However, when Arvedui makes the claim as Elendil's heir the council have no reply.

'To this Gondor made no answer'.

The council had no way of refuting this claim, because Elendil was held in such a high regard they would not remove him from the succession. Consequently as long as Elendil was the first king of Gondor then any heir of Elendil would be in the succession.

After this there is never any dispute that Arvedui has a valid claim, but they choose Earnil, who himself admits it was also due to the needs of Gondor and not just a matter of law.

' He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he had received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and NEEDS of the South-Kingdom.

Denethor would not give up the throne, but the Council would be breaking the law by rejecting Aragorn's claim.

[Belegorn]

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

No they had made a false claim, which they could not back up. Arvedui had made his initial claim on two points.
1. Being Isildur's heir.
2. Being the husband of Firiel.

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North Kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor as the direct descendant of Isildur and the husband of Firiel the only surviving child of Ondoher.'

The council then reject his claim and give their reasons.

1. They claim that Firiel's claim is not accepted, because in Gondor like Arnor they practice Salic succession.
2. The crown of Gondor belongs to the sons of Meneldil, to whom Isildur relinquished the kingdom.

So falsely they rejected the claim of Isildur's heir based on him having apparently relinquished the kingship of Gondor.

Arvedui, however then goes over the top of this and claim the throne not as Isildur's heir, but Elendil's.

'We have heard that the name Elendil stands to this day at the Head of the Line of Kings of Gondor'

Arvedui here has caught them out on the political manoeuvrings they were trying to carry out. The Throne of Gondor cannot belong solely to the heirs of Anarion, because Gondor to that day still claimed Elendil as their first king. As long as Elendil was their first king then other descendants of Elendil and not just through Meneldil could claim the throne.

His second point about Firiel is also valid. Whilst they had at the time through tradition chosen only male heirs to be king, the Law of Gondor was still theoretically the same as the Law of Numenor. Consequently women did have the right to the throne and nothing had been altered.

[Belegorn]

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

Read what actually happens. They don't reject Arvedui's second argument, but they just choose someone else.

You understand that as long as they have Elendil as the first king of Gondor then they cannot say it was relinquished to just to Meneldil's heirs. They know this and that's why they have no come back.

That's why Aragorn's claim is based on being the heir of Elendil.

'Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the banner of Elendil's House.'

There is a subtle difference and it is something the Council could never argue against.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Read what actually happens. They don't reject Arvedui's second argument, but they just choose someone else.

You understand that as long as they have Elendil as the first king of Gondor then they cannot say it was relinquished to just to Meneldil's heirs. They know this and that's why they have no come back.

That's why Aragorn's claim is based on being the heir of Elendil.

'Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the banner of Elendil's House.'

There is a subtle difference and it is something the Council could never argue against.

Elendil's two sons are Isildur and Anárion. Isildur is the elder line. They are of the opinion, in Gondor, that the elder line gave up the South Kingdom "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm". If Isildur is the rightful King but relinquishes the royalty of Gondor, then to the nobles of Gondor, it falls on Anárion and his descendants in the South. Certainly they are not rejecting Elendil because in either case they are still choosing a direct descendent in the paternal line from Elendil, in this case from Anárion since they think the other line [Isildur's] "RELINQUISHED this realm". They gave no answer because they were not hearing him. They already gave him their reasons why he could not be King and he could invoke Elendil all he wanted, because to them, the rule had been relinquished to the descendants of Elendil's second son.

In note #10 to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields:

"Meneldil was the nephew of Isildur, son of Isildur's younger brother Anárion, slain in the siege of Barad-dûr. Isildur had established Meneldil as King of Gondor. He was a man of courtesy, but farseeing, and he did not reveal his thoughts. He was in fact well-pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons, and hoped that affairs in the North would keep them long occupied."