Sauron Wins...Then What?

[Nikkolas]

Gandalf's mission was to defeat Sauron. If Sauron gets the Ring, he's not completing that mission. The Free People could never defeat Sauron militarily and once he has the Ring Sauron will make himself and his minions all the more powerful. Where I'm at in Fellowship Gandalf says the Nine are nothing to how dangerous they'd be if Sauron got the Ring. Imagine that - the Witch-king twice or three times stronger. He'd probably make entire armies shrivel up in fear by himself without even having to fight.

Hence why i asked if Gandalf would abandon Middle-earth to its fate. What else could he do? And you might remember that a lot of Elves were already abandoning Men and Dwarves to death and slavery by this point. Elrond and Galadriel were nice enough to stick around with their kindred but if Sauron got the Ring and thus they could no longer use their rings to preserve their homes, they might pack up and move West as well.

[Lotrelf]

There's a saying, it says :"A life of sin ends in sorrow sooner or later." So, Sauron's sinful life had to come to an end. Sooner or later. This sooner would have been if Isildur had destroyed the Ring, and 'later' became when Frodo destroyed it. No, I don't think either of them would have run away. Gandalf a was Maia-a demi-god. It was his responsibility to do what he did. He would not have just fled. Valar would have another plan for that, but nothing of that happened so it's hard to say "what would have happened?"

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

There's a saying, it says :"A life of sin ends in sorrow sooner or later." So, Sauron's sinful life had to come to an end. Sooner or later. This sooner would have been if Isildur had destroyed the Ring, and 'later' became when Frodo destroyed it. No, I don't think either of them would have run away. Gandalf a was Maia-a demi-god. It was his responsibility to do what he did. He would not have just fled. Valar would have another plan for that, but nothing of that happened so it's hard to say "what would have happened?"

I've had a notion knocking around in my head for the past two days that Tolkien in his letters addressed this somewhere, that if Sauron had triumphed at the end of the Third Age that he would not have been left alone to rule over Middle earth forever, that either the Valar or Eru himself would have intervened to topple him in one way or another.

However, I have thumbed through my copy of Letters and it has eluded me...so maybe I made it up.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That sounds like something that was discussed around here. Possibly you're remembering this thread. I can't find anything in the letters either about his being put down by the Valar.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Gandalf's mission was to defeat Sauron... Hence why i asked if Gandalf would abandon Middle-earth to its fate. What else could he do?

I think his mission was a bit more nuanced. It was not to defeat Sauron (ie. by himself if he could), but to enhance and encourage the resistance of all free peoples aiming at Sauron's defeat.

In any event, if Sauron gets the Ring, or even if it is lost once again, Gandalf will be in the battles of final defence - still doing all he can in HIS mission to encourage the defense against the darkness - so if all is lost he will die there.

When he died the first time, he didn't "choose" to come back (much though he may have desired it), he was re-embodied and SENT back. If/when he dies a second time - who knows what the plan of Eru will lead to? If Eru sends him back, he will come back, if He doesn't, he won't.

p.s. Even the elves may find they can't flee into the west - if Sauron's victory has destroyed the havens and the ships. Maybe some will get away that way - but I think many would find themselves stuck in ME.

[Galadriel55]

But would Sauron do? He conquered Middle Earth. Now what? Aman?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But would Sauron do? He conquered Middle Earth. Now what? Aman?

I think that really was beyond his reach. For one thing, his servants had a wide-ranging fear of the Sea. Even if they'd been forced by him to board ships though, the Straight Way to the West would have been closed.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think that really was beyond his reach. For one thing, his servants had a wide-ranging fear of the Sea. Even if they'd been forced by him to board ships though, the Straight Way to the West would have been closed.

Yeah, but, like, don't you get bored sitting on a Dark Throne in the Land of Mordor every single day? And don't you get a bit arrogant with all of ME at your command? Like, how was he planning to spend the rest of eternity? Retire and do... what? Go ice-fishing in the Forochel?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yeah, but, like, don't you get bored sitting on a Dark Throne in the Land of Mordor every single day? And don't you get a bit arrogant with all of ME at your command? Like, how was he planning to spend the rest of eternity? Retire and do... what? Go ice-fishing in the Forochel?

I'm not saying he might not in his arrogance have tried to eventually have "broadened his horizons", but he would have been unsuccessful. I think for a very long time merely having all Elves, Men, and Dwarves under his thumb would have been like a perpetual birthday.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But would Sauron do? He conquered Middle Earth. Now what? Aman?

As I said earlier, ME becomes the DPRK. Sauron may have ambitions for Aman, but he can't get there without the Valars' permission, so that's moot. He'd likely be content to oppress and enslave people in his own domain, regardless:

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever."

"The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy — everything."

"Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty and then we shall fill you with ourselves."

All three quotes were said by O'Brien in 1984. I can imagine Sauron telling someone the same things- especially the last one.

[Belegorn]

There is no way Sauron could take his fight to Aman and hope to succeed. The Númenórean host his armies could not stand against barely set foot on Aman before they were dealt with. Only Melkor at the peak of his powers could hope to accomplish such a thing, as once upon a time he competed with them all.

Had Sauron reclaimed the One the Elves would be between a rock and a hard place because all their work with the Three would be laid bare. The West is Elven-home. All other species would still be there. Unfortunately for Men, the Dúnedain are few and are not much of a threat as they were in the 2nd Age. Not only that, Sauron has Dúnedain in his armies. They did not just breed out ruling over lesser men as the sons and grandsons of Castamir did.

Some people might give up, other might not. Guerilla warfare would perhaps ensue sort of like the Rangers of the North did with Orcs and other threats to Eriador. I also am not sure if Galadriel would turn tail. She seems to be the one to have been there to fight to long fight against Sauron and I'd think she'd be there.

[cellurdur]

Sauron would rule Middle Earth for thousands of years. There would probably be some resistance and eventually someone heroic enough would be either inspire men or do something amazing enough by him or herself to defeat Sauron. The key to this is that Eru would not allow Sauron to win forever. As Frodo says evil cannot conquer forever. Sadly this could literally mean thousands upon thousands of years with Sauron as a dictator.

Sauron did not need to gain the ring to win the war. His armies were too grand for anyone to stand up against him. At first Gandalf and the Wise did not realise just how strong Sauron had become until Denethor revealed what he had seen in the Palantir.

[Alfirin]

While I have no doubt that many of the Free peoples would try to go guerilla for a while, I'm not quite so sure they would "eventually" succeed. Sauron would just be too overpowered for me to believe that, given enough time (and he is technically immortal) a re-powered Sauron would not eventually squash down ALL non divine resistance. His Nazgul would be more terrifying than ever (and their ability to basically cause men's hearts to fail would probably be turned up to 11). Plus unlike previous times they can now FLY so it will be a LOT harder to evade/escape them.

Galadriel is a similar situation (as it Elrond). However much they are willing to stand their ground, they just wouldn't have the might. If Sauron has the One ring, they don't DARE use thiers, for ANY reason. They could try and hide in the forests and play Guerrilla from there, but I imagine that his time with Saruman in his employ has let Sauron see his methods, and the idea of "cut/burn down the forests where the elves are would probably be on his strategies pretty early. (he'd want the remaning ents dealt with eventually anyway, and no forests basically knocks them out.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Gandalf was as powerful. Who knows Valar would intervened directly!

No Gandalf was not as powerful.

Originally Posted by TTT, Bk. 3, ch. 5, p. 123

I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.

Saruman was "higher in Valinórean stature than the others" and was not stronger than Sauron either. In the text of The Istari it is said that Saruman "was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."

The Valar used emissaries [the Istari] to deal with the Sauron problem, not to overwhelm the Children of Ilúvatar with their prowess, but to unite them. Basically what Gandalf did. They would be peers of Sauron, Maiar on a lesser level, and "they were forbidden to match his power with power" [RotK, Appendix B].