Sauron Wins...Then What?

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

This is something I always wondered about. What if Gandalf still failed in his mission even after being sent back? Would he just shrug his shoulders say "I tried" and head back to Undying Lands with the other Elves, abandoning the Men and Dwarves to the mercy of Sauron?

Gandalf was not the only one fighting Sauron. Aragorn and thousand of men were fighting there as well. Gandalf worked as a catalyst for them all. A thread who wouldn't let anyone get broken or give up. No one could fail untill Frodo failed himself. Sauron's world turned upside down because of Aragorn. Gandalf motivated them all. Frodo carried the Ring. This is how the Ring was destroyed. Not by one man. So Gandalf failing in his mission is not plausible here.

I propose two situations though since it seems like they'd be on different scales of "we're screwed."

1. Frodo just dies somewhere...I dunno, Shelob eats him. The Ring is lost or Gollum takes it and hides back in his cave. With The One lost forever in this scenario, is all hope extinguished or is there a faint glimmer?

No, the Ring was trying its best to go back to Sauron. By the time Frodo reached Shelob's Lair the Ring was already powerful. Not even Gollum could hide the Ring anywhere. Not in the mountains. Nowhere.

2. Sauron does recover the One Ring. Is that when everyone just gives up and flees to the West?

Why would they flee to the West? They are given the responsibility. It won't be morally good either. Though it is plain that none of them would have fled anywhere. Sauron would become stronger, but Gandalf was as powerful. Who knows Valar would intervened directly! Or perhaps they'd have to wait for another age to see Sauron's fall.
And the rest Mortals would have died. Only immortals would come to a tragic end

[Nikkolas]

Gandalf's mission was to defeat Sauron. If Sauron gets the Ring, he's not completing that mission. The Free People could never defeat Sauron militarily and once he has the Ring Sauron will make himself and his minions all the more powerful. Where I'm at in Fellowship Gandalf says the Nine are nothing to how dangerous they'd be if Sauron got the Ring. Imagine that - the Witch-king twice or three times stronger. He'd probably make entire armies shrivel up in fear by himself without even having to fight.

Hence why i asked if Gandalf would abandon Middle-earth to its fate. What else could he do? And you might remember that a lot of Elves were already abandoning Men and Dwarves to death and slavery by this point. Elrond and Galadriel were nice enough to stick around with their kindred but if Sauron got the Ring and thus they could no longer use their rings to preserve their homes, they might pack up and move West as well.

[Lotrelf]

There's a saying, it says :"A life of sin ends in sorrow sooner or later." So, Sauron's sinful life had to come to an end. Sooner or later. This sooner would have been if Isildur had destroyed the Ring, and 'later' became when Frodo destroyed it. No, I don't think either of them would have run away. Gandalf a was Maia-a demi-god. It was his responsibility to do what he did. He would not have just fled. Valar would have another plan for that, but nothing of that happened so it's hard to say "what would have happened?"

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

There's a saying, it says :"A life of sin ends in sorrow sooner or later." So, Sauron's sinful life had to come to an end. Sooner or later. This sooner would have been if Isildur had destroyed the Ring, and 'later' became when Frodo destroyed it. No, I don't think either of them would have run away. Gandalf a was Maia-a demi-god. It was his responsibility to do what he did. He would not have just fled. Valar would have another plan for that, but nothing of that happened so it's hard to say "what would have happened?"

I've had a notion knocking around in my head for the past two days that Tolkien in his letters addressed this somewhere, that if Sauron had triumphed at the end of the Third Age that he would not have been left alone to rule over Middle earth forever, that either the Valar or Eru himself would have intervened to topple him in one way or another.

However, I have thumbed through my copy of Letters and it has eluded me...so maybe I made it up.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That sounds like something that was discussed around here. Possibly you're remembering this thread. I can't find anything in the letters either about his being put down by the Valar.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Gandalf's mission was to defeat Sauron... Hence why i asked if Gandalf would abandon Middle-earth to its fate. What else could he do?

I think his mission was a bit more nuanced. It was not to defeat Sauron (ie. by himself if he could), but to enhance and encourage the resistance of all free peoples aiming at Sauron's defeat.

In any event, if Sauron gets the Ring, or even if it is lost once again, Gandalf will be in the battles of final defence - still doing all he can in HIS mission to encourage the defense against the darkness - so if all is lost he will die there.

When he died the first time, he didn't "choose" to come back (much though he may have desired it), he was re-embodied and SENT back. If/when he dies a second time - who knows what the plan of Eru will lead to? If Eru sends him back, he will come back, if He doesn't, he won't.

p.s. Even the elves may find they can't flee into the west - if Sauron's victory has destroyed the havens and the ships. Maybe some will get away that way - but I think many would find themselves stuck in ME.

[Galadriel55]

But would Sauron do? He conquered Middle Earth. Now what? Aman?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But would Sauron do? He conquered Middle Earth. Now what? Aman?

I think that really was beyond his reach. For one thing, his servants had a wide-ranging fear of the Sea. Even if they'd been forced by him to board ships though, the Straight Way to the West would have been closed.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think that really was beyond his reach. For one thing, his servants had a wide-ranging fear of the Sea. Even if they'd been forced by him to board ships though, the Straight Way to the West would have been closed.

Yeah, but, like, don't you get bored sitting on a Dark Throne in the Land of Mordor every single day? And don't you get a bit arrogant with all of ME at your command? Like, how was he planning to spend the rest of eternity? Retire and do... what? Go ice-fishing in the Forochel?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yeah, but, like, don't you get bored sitting on a Dark Throne in the Land of Mordor every single day? And don't you get a bit arrogant with all of ME at your command? Like, how was he planning to spend the rest of eternity? Retire and do... what? Go ice-fishing in the Forochel?

I'm not saying he might not in his arrogance have tried to eventually have "broadened his horizons", but he would have been unsuccessful. I think for a very long time merely having all Elves, Men, and Dwarves under his thumb would have been like a perpetual birthday.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But would Sauron do? He conquered Middle Earth. Now what? Aman?

As I said earlier, ME becomes the DPRK. Sauron may have ambitions for Aman, but he can't get there without the Valars' permission, so that's moot. He'd likely be content to oppress and enslave people in his own domain, regardless:

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever."

"The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy — everything."

"Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty and then we shall fill you with ourselves."

All three quotes were said by O'Brien in 1984. I can imagine Sauron telling someone the same things- especially the last one.

[Belegorn]

There is no way Sauron could take his fight to Aman and hope to succeed. The Númenórean host his armies could not stand against barely set foot on Aman before they were dealt with. Only Melkor at the peak of his powers could hope to accomplish such a thing, as once upon a time he competed with them all.

Had Sauron reclaimed the One the Elves would be between a rock and a hard place because all their work with the Three would be laid bare. The West is Elven-home. All other species would still be there. Unfortunately for Men, the Dúnedain are few and are not much of a threat as they were in the 2nd Age. Not only that, Sauron has Dúnedain in his armies. They did not just breed out ruling over lesser men as the sons and grandsons of Castamir did.

Some people might give up, other might not. Guerilla warfare would perhaps ensue sort of like the Rangers of the North did with Orcs and other threats to Eriador. I also am not sure if Galadriel would turn tail. She seems to be the one to have been there to fight to long fight against Sauron and I'd think she'd be there.

[cellurdur]

Sauron would rule Middle Earth for thousands of years. There would probably be some resistance and eventually someone heroic enough would be either inspire men or do something amazing enough by him or herself to defeat Sauron. The key to this is that Eru would not allow Sauron to win forever. As Frodo says evil cannot conquer forever. Sadly this could literally mean thousands upon thousands of years with Sauron as a dictator.

Sauron did not need to gain the ring to win the war. His armies were too grand for anyone to stand up against him. At first Gandalf and the Wise did not realise just how strong Sauron had become until Denethor revealed what he had seen in the Palantir.

[Yregwyn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Gandalf was not the only one fighting Sauron. Aragorn and thousand of men were fighting there as well. Gandalf worked as a catalyst for them all. A thread who wouldn't let anyone get broken or give up. No one could fail untill Frodo failed himself. Sauron's world turned upside down because of Aragorn. Gandalf motivated them all. Frodo carried the Ring. This is how the Ring was destroyed. Not by one man. So Gandalf failing in his mission is not plausible here.

No, the Ring was trying its best to go back to Sauron. By the time Frodo reached Shelob's Lair the Ring was already powerful. Not even Gollum could hide the Ring anywhere. Not in the mountains. Nowhere.

Why would they flee to the West? They are given the responsibility. It won't be morally good either. Though it is plain that none of them would have fled anywhere. Sauron would become stronger, but Gandalf was as powerful. Who knows Valar would intervened directly! Or perhaps they'd have to wait for another age to see Sauron's fall.
And the rest Mortals would have died. Only immortals would come to a tragic end

Sauron would have be about to destroy everything beyond redress for the Valar to intervene again. The two times that they did they, 1st destroyed Utumo and moved continents and all kinds of crazyness happend in the process. Then the 2nd time they destroyed Angband and sank Beleriand. They were afraid to intervene hince the Istari and Glorfindel. So it would have to be really hopeless for them to do anything much more then what they had already done.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Yregwyn

Sauron would have be about to destroy everything beyond redress for the Valar to intervene again. The two times that they did they, 1st destroyed Utumo and moved continents and all kinds of crazyness happend in the process. Then the 2nd time they destroyed Angband and sank Beleriand. They were afraid to intervene hince the Istari and Glorfindel. So it would have to be really hopeless for them to do anything much more then what they had already done.

It is entirely possible that the impact Sauron's domination of the Younger Children would have exactly qualified as destroying everything beyond redress...personally I think that is the case, although I don't see them embarking on another War of Wrath.

I'm not sure what I see them doing, but I think they would have to do something.

[Nikkolas]

It depends on what you mean by "destroy." Sauron was interested in commanding everything, not burning it to the ground. Forests might all be used to fuel the fires of Mordor and other beautiful pieces of nature ravaged for the sake of his needs but consider the fate of everyone in the East who apparently served him. They were all living fine and dandy under his rule for long stretches of time.

Sauron just isn't the mass slaughter type. Recall what is said of him iNnThe Silmarillion in the Second Age - that EVERY creature upon Middle-earth save Elves marched in his host. If nothing else, Sauron is content to let things live and maybe even thrive so long as they live and thrive under his rule.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think the truly sad answer to the question is that to the minds of many (Tolkien and myself included) Sauron did win and is now very much in the process of laying waste to the Earth in the pursuit of selfishness and self-aggrandizement at the expense of the living world and all of its peoples. The fact that the Dark Lord is working this destruction through his lesser avatars doesn't undo the completeness of his victory.

That having been said, there are also many (Tolkien and myself included) who believe that where there is life, there is always hope.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I think the truly sad answer to the question is that to the minds of many (Tolkien and myself included) Sauron did win and is now very much in the process of laying waste to the Earth in the pursuit of selfishness and self-aggrandizement at the expense of the living world and all of its peoples. The fact that the Dark Lord is working this destruction through his lesser avatars doesn't undo the completeness of his victory.

That having been said, there are also many (Tolkien and myself included) who believe that where there is life, there is always hope.

Well, Gandalf made the point that Sauron was but an "emissary" of evil, and that other evils may come. The seed planted by Morgoth and carried on by Sauron could not be utterly eradicated.

The point of Gandalf's struggle though was to do all that he could, with what he had at that time to destroy Sauron. And the evil remaining afterward would simply have to be dealt with by Aragorn and his descendants. If Sauron had either regained the Ring or conquered the West militarily, he would have been able to greatly prolong his time in Middle-earth, and do much more damage to the lands and the spirit of those opposed to him. Taking Sauron out at least gave the West more of a chance to stand against evil, without having an incarnate, immortal representative of it personally leading its advancement.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

It depends on what you mean by "destroy." Sauron was interested in commanding everything, not burning it to the ground. Forests might all be used to fuel the fires of Mordor and other beautiful pieces of nature ravaged for the sake of his needs but consider the fate of everyone in the East who apparently served him. They were all living fine and dandy under his rule for long stretches of time.

Sauron just isn't the mass slaughter type. Recall what is said of him iNnThe Silmarillion in the Second Age - that EVERY creature upon Middle-earth save Elves marched in his host. If nothing else, Sauron is content to let things live and maybe even thrive so long as they live and thrive under his rule.

In this context destroy does not necessarily mean slaughter.

I envision that the corruption and degradation that Sauron's domination would inflict on the souls of humanity would be destruction enough to cause the Valar to do something.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Kuruharan
I've had a notion knocking around in my head for the past two days that Tolkien in his letters addressed this somewhere, that if Sauron had triumphed at the end of the Third Age that he would not have been left alone to rule over Middle earth forever, that either the Valar or Eru himself would have intervened to topple him in one way or another.

Correct. It's Tolkien's way of allowing for both free will and Iluvatar not allowing a permanent triumphing of evil.

But the eventual defeat of Sauron is actually presaged in Eru's chding of Melkor in the Aunulindale when Melkor tried to take over and dominate the Music of the Ainur
:

Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music to my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but my instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

[denethorthefirst]

Even if Sauron somehow conquered the northwest of middle earth he still wouldnt control the whole of Arda: he still has to invade the new continents that arose after the downfall of numenor (the Americas I presume), Afrika and the Far East. But even if he achieved total domination, I don't think the Valar would intervene. Somehow, somewhere (maybe after a little "divine Inspiration") there would be an uprising against his rule ...
But IF the Valar decided to attack him I don't think that war would be as catastrophic and world-changing as the earlier wars between the Valar and Melkor (the primeval conflicts, the battle of powers after the awakening of the elves and finally the war of wrath). These conflicts were so destructive because of the power involved and the power that was needed to dislodge Melkor. If the Valar invaded a Sauron-dominated Middle-earth the ensuing conflict would be far less supernatural and more like a conventional human war: an army of maybe 50 000 Vanyar and Noldor led by a dozen Maia officers would suffice and the ensuing destruction would be local (some destroyed towns and a burned forest or two).