Sauron Wins...Then What?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Gandalf was as powerful. Who knows Valar would intervened directly!

No Gandalf was not as powerful.

Originally Posted by TTT, Bk. 3, ch. 5, p. 123

I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.

Saruman was "higher in Valinórean stature than the others" and was not stronger than Sauron either. In the text of The Istari it is said that Saruman "was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."

The Valar used emissaries [the Istari] to deal with the Sauron problem, not to overwhelm the Children of Ilúvatar with their prowess, but to unite them. Basically what Gandalf did. They would be peers of Sauron, Maiar on a lesser level, and "they were forbidden to match his power with power" [RotK, Appendix B].

[Nikkolas]

Tolkien himself also states Olorin and Curumo are of lesser Maiar than Sauron.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...11&postcount=1

The only hope they had to match his power was with the One. I don't think anyone except maybe Galadriel could stand up to Sauron. I can't recall exactly but I think i remember her getting a lot of hype in The Silmarillion... Might be misremembering though. She was never a favorite.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

The only hope they had to match his power was with the One. I don't think anyone except maybe Galadriel could stand up to Sauron. I can't recall exactly but I think i remember her getting a lot of hype in The Silmarillion... Might be misremembering though. She was never a favorite.

There is also Letter, #246, in which Tolkien discusses the possibility of someone else besting Sauron in a one-on-one contest for the Ring.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]- being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter, It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

So from that only Gandalf was likely to really have had the power to keep the Ring from Sauron permanently. Keep in mind that even though Sauron's original "stature" as created in the angelic hierarchy was greater than that of the Istari, he had also spent his spirit with the ages-long effort of dominating other wills and commanding his slaves. So Gandalf could indeed have stood a chance against him. And that is without the power of the One, for that power would have been under the ultimate command of the victor between Sauron and the claimant.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There is also Letter, #246, in which Tolkien discusses the possibility of someone else besting Sauron in a one-on-one contest for the Ring.



So from that only Gandalf was likely to really have had the power to keep the Ring from Sauron permanently. Keep in mind that even though Sauron's original "stature" as created in the angelic hierarchy was greater than that of the Istari, he had also spent his spirit with the ages-long effort of dominating other wills and commanding his slaves. So Gandalf could indeed have stood a chance against him. And that is without the power of the One, for that power would have been under the ultimate command of the victor between Sauron and the claimant.

Tolkien was talking about the forces of the West, but I think that we can be confident that Saruman too would have had the strength to vanquish Sauron. Interestingly that out of all the other Elves etc especially Elrond has the best chance of victory.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien was talking about the forces of the West, but I think that we can be confident that Saruman too would have had the strength to vanquish Sauron.

Well, Saruman too was guilty of using his innate power as a Maia for domination, though for a far lesser time than Sauron. I think his pride too would have been a handicap ti him. It could be notable that through the palantíri Sauron was victorious over Saruman, giving him commands which were obeyed.

[Nikkolas]

Of course the Ring isn't exactly Sauron himself. The palantir was a direct link to Sauron unmasked - his will and his mind and Saruman could not conquer such strength. The Ring though obviously does not have nearly the same level of overt power or else Frodo would have been driven mad long ago.

I just think that Saruman using his innate power and his will to dominate others (which is a factor for mastering it according to Galadriel) could potentially claim it for himself. Note also that it is specifically Gandal's Maia nature that Tolkien attributes to his ability to take the Ring and challenge Sauron. Saruman thus fulfills some of the know criteria for mastring the One and using it.

I cannot help but think Saruman's losing his "mental battle" with Sauron via the palantir is due to how similar they are in mind. In Fellowship I believe it is Gandalf who says that even against the might of the One Ring you can at least temporarily fend it off if you have a noble character. Maybe it was a similar situation with the Stones. So Saruman, even if he is weaker than Sauron, might not have been "ensnared" by him if he had righteous cause for using the Stone. As it was though, he was essentially a lesser Sauron and thus naturally his mind was more easily swayed and dominated by his "superior self" if you get me.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, Saruman too was guilty of using his innate power as a Maia for domination, though for a far lesser time than Sauron. I think his pride too would have been a handicap ti him. It could be notable that through the palantíri Sauron was victorious over Saruman, giving him commands which were obeyed.

They key point is as you said he had been using his power for a far smaller time and had yet to spend most of his power. He lost to Sauron in the battle with the Palantir, but in this battle he would have the ring strengthening him. We know he was mightier than Gandalf so stands to reason he should have been capable of what Gandalf would.