Can atheists appreciate/understand Lord of the Ring?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien himself addressed the issue of shared experience between the author and reader, albeit on a different subject.

It is also false , though naturally attractive, when the lives of an author and critic have overlapped, to suppose that the movements of thought or the events of times common to both were necessarily the most powerful influences.

Now, I realise that for Tolkien his religious beliefs genuinely were an important part of his life, and someone who shares them might find a deeper connection to those elements in his work that were inspired by or related to his Catholicism. It is after all one thing to understand a belief system and quite a different thing to accept it as truth and live by its tenets; but that would only be like a soldier finding a deeper resonance in those parts of Tolkien's writings that arose from his military service, or a linguist responding to his philological jokes. The only person who has ever understood Tolkien's work the way he did was J.R.R. Tolkien, and even he changed his mind a number of times, as his letters demonstrate. Any attempt to suggest that our own experiences somehow give us a greater insight than other readers will only look like an attempt to possess Tolkien and his work and make them a part of our own agendas, which is unhelpful for criticism and tiresome to see.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by jallanite

I’m sorry, but if the hobbits, dwarves, and wizards don’t exist, then neither can their ideals, except as fictions by Tolkien.

Are you implying that strength, weakness, mercy, relationships, pride, honour, misunderstanding, despair, rage, madness, and humanity do not exist?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Are you implying that strength, weakness, mercy, relationships, pride, honour, misunderstanding, despair, rage, madness, and humanity do not exist?

Not in the least. I am implying only that fiction is fiction, nothing more

Ayn Rand’s novel Atlas Shrugged also shows “strength, weakness, mercy, relationships, pride, honour, misunderstanding, despair, rage, madness, and humanity”. So do many other works.

I apologize that I have apparently written so poorly that you have misunderstood me so badly. Tolkien did not attempt to set up a cult around his book, unlike Ayn Rand. Such things, especially when set up by a third party, often go badly. See, for example, http://virtualstoa.net/2002/01/24/8983057/ . I have had very bad experiences with Tolkien fans in the past. Most Tolkien fans are fine. You I find exceptionally fine. But some are liars and thieves and very much not worth dealing with. As with any group, atheists or believers.

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I don't understand what's there to dislike in the term "spirituality".

It is used by hypocrites in bad ways and the word has been ruined for me.

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

I also said how a non-believer with a glance declared the books "crap".

What does that show? A non-believer doesn’t like a book you like. *Sigh!*

In Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, in letter 177, Tolkien writes:

I also thought [the poet W. H.] Auden rather bad – he cannot at any rate read verse, having a poor rhythmical sense; and deplored his making the book [The Lord of the Rings] ‘a test of literary taste’. You cannot do that with any work – and if you could you only infuriate.

In the Foreward to the Second Edition to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien writes:

Some who have read the book [The Lord of the Rings], or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer.

In Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, in letter 294 Tolkien writes, unusually, about his normal reading. Tolkien mentions mainly “the S.F. of Isaac Azimov”, a mistyping for sf author Isaac Asimov, a popular atheist of Jewish birth who was also a fan of Tolkien’s work. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov . Tolkien then mentions the books of Mary Renault, especially The King Must Die and The Bull From the Sea. Mary Renault was known throughout her life as an openly gay writer. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Renault . I think she was also an atheist but am not sure. In any case Tolkien proudly relates that a couple of days ago he had unexpectedly received a card of appreciation from her which he calls “perhaps the piece of ‘Fan-mail’ that gives me most pleasure.”

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

The only person who has ever understood Tolkien's work the way he did was J.R.R. Tolkien, and even he changed his mind a number of times, as his letters demonstrate. Any attempt to suggest that our own experiences somehow give us a greater insight than other readers will only look like an attempt to possess Tolkien and his work and make them a part of our own agendas, which is unhelpful for criticism and tiresome to see.

Totally agreed. People usually surprise you when you get to know them.

[jallanite]

Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings has often been banned, especially in religious schools, because the authorities wish to protect their charges from unreal tales of wizards and elves (and sex) and so forth. For a charmingly told account with a happy ending of how Lindale’s copy of The Fellowship of the Ring was confiscated by a teacher, see:

Originally Posted by Lindale

Once upon a time in a strict all girls Catholic school where even Harry Potter was infamous, a little girl called Lindale who would have her tenth birthday in two weeks saw in the Sunday paper a comparison of JRRT and the forbidden Rowling. She hounded her father, who never really was able to resist her when she was pouting, and three days before her birthday she had a copy of TH, bought at an insane price in the expensive bookstore because the local bookstore currently had none in stock.

The following Christmas, Lindale asked for her usual Harry Potter (number four, I think) and for the complete Lord of the Rings. She got so excited about her Christmas presents, she didn't really think that shoving FotR in her school bag might catch the nuns' attention. When a teacher of home economics saw the poor little girl reading a book that advocated wizards, she confiscated the book. Lindale already had a record of reading HP. She was in bad trouble.

During lunchbreak Lindale was very scared; her Christmas present was gone! She tried not to remember Gollum back in TH screaming about his birthday present. Struggling with whatever wits she had, she headed to the telephone booths and called her mother

...and thus began the bothersome affair of this little girl's book, which included her father threatening the teacher and some of the nuns. And then Lindale thought, whatever trouble that book has caused! It must be good. When she got her book back, weeks later and with a formal apology, Lindale read it very carefully.

And that is how Lindale learned of JRRT, read TH and LotR, and learned about the Inquisition too.

Two years later Lindale hounded her aging father for a copy of Sil and UT. And a little over three months ago she had a tantrum again, claiming she was the last girl without a CoH. Predictably, that spoiled brat has all Tolkien books her father and she could find.

Such tales of confiscating are not so usual nowadays. But see:

1. http://banninggandalf.weebly.com/satanism.html
2. http://www.donaanacountyhistsoc.org/...%20banning.pdf
3. http://bannedbooks.world.edu/2011/03...s-jrr-tolkien/

But there are still claims on the web that The Lord of the Rings should be not be read, at least by Christians:

1. http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/201...lkien-was.html
2. http://www.ericbarger.com/lotr.c.c.2.htm
3. http://bookofjeremiah1eighteenninete...n-front-of-god

Note that I personally do not agree with any of these posts. But even if any of them were totally correct, there is nothing illegal with any person stating his or her own religious feelings about The Lord of the Rings or about anything they wish. If they wish to make a fool of themself they are at liberty to do so.

I was not able to find any sites in which arrogant atheists suggested that banning The Lord of the Rings would be a good thing. I did find three supposed illuminati sites whose supposed findings are, in my opinion, as bogus as that on the Christian sites I found:

1. http://www.illuminati-news.com/tolkien-occult.htm
2. http://www.illuminati-news.com/0/tolkien%281%29.htm
3. http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/spiri...kien-lewis.htm

I suppose that the writers of all six articles would believe that they are all being spiritual.

[Morthoron]

From http://bookofjeremiah1eighteenninete...n-front-of-god:

In Tolkien’s fables, Dorwinion is the kingdom of the dwarves. It is really the word “Darwinian”. So Tolkien had this idea that even Christ was inferior, because he was a Hebrew man.

Oh, this fellow is a hoot!

It is also notable that Gollum, the most despised creature in Tolkien’s imagination, was not only enslaved to seeking the master-ring, but was also the only person/creature in Tolkien’s fable described as catching fishes.
In the Bible, God/Christ has eyes that go throughout all the earth (II Chronicles 16:9).

Ummm...bzuh?

There is no resurrection in Tolkien’s fable world. Humanity in his fables are doomed to only have existence in the natural world, without hope of joining the divine. Tolkien’s overall theme is one of enjoy-the-moment (“hobbits”, his idea of forever childhood), but hopeless melancholy about the long-term view of human existence (his description of grown adult men).

It seems he pulls more out of his posterior than just scraps of toilet paper.

The whole “Lord of the Rings” is a perverted fable where, in Tolkien’s foolish imaginations, the gods of his pagan religion triumphs over his distorted portrayal of Christ (the Lord of the churches).

For this poor buffoon, religion is not the opiate of the masses, rather it is a lobotomy.