I Found the Entwives!

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Haunting the place isn't exactly the same thing as "living happily"' though, is it?

depends on your definition of haunting. I dont happen to call it haunting as in spooks floating around a graveyard going 'wooo', but more a Genius loci perhaps sent by Yavanna, seeing as she loves all growing things I suspect Entwives would be dear to her.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

depends on your definition of haunting. I dont happen to call it haunting as in spooks floating around a graveyard going 'wooo', but more a Genius loci perhaps sent by Yavanna, seeing as she loves all growing things I suspect Entwives would be dear to her.

Spirits in Middle-earth proper (outside of Valinor and the Halls of Mandos) are almost exclusively cast in a negative light: the Paths of the Dead, the Dead Marshes, the Barrows, etc. There really are no "happy spirits" inhabiting Tolkien's world, nor is there any textual evidence for any such conclusion.

Now, if you were to suggest that the entwives became treeish (bushy? bloomlike? shrubbish? ), then there is a precedent for that amongst ents and huorns; however, considering the Fellowship stayed for quite a while in Lorien without any hint of such a phenomenon, then it's still far-fetched.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Spirits in Middle-earth proper (outside of Valinor and the Halls of Mandos) are almost exclusively cast in a negative light: the Paths of the Dead, the Dead Marshes, the Barrows, etc. There really are no "happy spirits" inhabiting Tolkien's world, nor is there any textual evidence for any such conclusion.

Now, if you were to suggest that the entwives became treeish (bushy? bloomlike? shrubbish? ), then there is a precedent for that amongst ents and huorns; however, considering the Fellowship stayed for quite a while in Lorien without any hint of such a phenomenon, then it's still far-fetched.

never suggested there was textual evidence. its my own pet theory. I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

never suggested there was textual evidence. its my own pet theory. I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

I understand this is a "pet theory" of yours. I was just wondering if there was any semblance of precedent in your conjecture. As there really isn't a hint of canon to support it, there's nothing further to discuss.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I understand this is a "pet theory" of yours. I was just wondering if there was any semblance of precedent in your conjecture. As there really isn't a hint of canon to support it, there's nothing further to discuss.

thanks for being dismissive. much appreciated contribution to debate. No wonder this forum is largely empty.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

thanks for being dismissive. much appreciated contribution to debate. No wonder this forum is largely empty.

But there Is no "debate". A debate requires a substantive argument. You offer nothing but a whim with no support. You, yourself, said your pet theory had no canonical basis. What more would you like to discuss?

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But there Is no "debate". A debate requires a substantive argument. You offer nothing but a whim with no support. You, yourself, said your pet theory had no canonical basis. What more would you like to discuss?

nothing. with you.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

I like it as it is. Also I dont take a narrow view on what is and isnt a spirit.

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

Interesting, then, that Treebeard claimed that the ents were awakened by the Eldar, and it was the elves who taught them speech. Could this be an entish folktale on the lines of mannish folktales concerning the Lamps of Arda, or the story of Arien and Tilion?

We know the ents procreated and had entings, and Fangorn identified younger ents at the entmoot. I'm trying to recall any further info regarding ents in HoMe, without doing further research on a lazy holiday weekend.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interesting, then, that Treebeard claimed that the ents were awakened by the Eldar, and it was the elves who taught them speech. Could this be an entish folktale on the lines of mannish folktales concerning the Lamps of Arda, or the story of Arien and Tilion?

As is not uncommon with Tolkien, there are ambiguities. Perhaps the embodied spirits were deliberately started out on a treeish level, with the teaching of the Eldar meant as an enriching and relationship-building exercise for both? Wouldn't that be just like a manager like Manwë to arrange. No doubt the annual Company Picnic at Lórien in Aman was a mandatory event.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As is not uncommon with Tolkien, there are ambiguities. Perhaps the embodied spirits were deliberately started out on a treeish level, with the teaching of the Eldar meant as an enriching and relationship-building exercise for both? Wouldn't that be just like a manager like Manwë to arrange. No doubt the annual Company Picnic at Lórien in Aman was a mandatory event.

Yes, the mandatory picnic was part of the third prophecy of Mandos.

Anyway, rather like the alternative version of orkish origins being that orc bodies were inhabited by Maiar, but then somehow devolved into mortality, there is often an ambiguity or possible alternative. The entwives, however, are more an enigmatic mystery rather than ambiguity. And one I don't think Tolkien ever wanted solved. Mysteries along that line obviously amused him.

[FerniesApple]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Of the Ents' beginnings, The Silmarillion states that they were due to arrive when Yavanna's thought would 'summon spirits from afar'. Manwë seems to put them in the same category as the Eagles of the West, as also beings not born in bodies, but with a spiritual entry causing them to 'awake'. It seems to be a catchall explanation for everything from Eagles, to Huan, and maybe even to Tom Bombadil, to say that they are bodies inhabited by Auinur, but that really does seem the likely canon rationalization.

thats interesting. I wonder if after they were 'awoken' if their physical bodies died they would then slumber or dream, and their dream would inhabit the land. Dont native Australians call their spirit world Dreamtime? or something similar.
I often wonder about Goldberry being some kind of water spirit too. Sometimes even inanimate objects like Elven rope seem to have a kind of intelligence of their own, maybe not spirit but a kind of sympathetic Elven magic maybe.

[Galin]

Technically Treebeard says that Elves began waking up trees and teaching them to talk, but it is a bit confusing, as earlier Treebeard seems to explain that some of 'us' are still true Ents, lively enough, but many are growing sleepy or tree-ish...

'Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. This is going on all the time.'

'(...) Some of my kin look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk.'

Does this simply mean that some 'true' Ents can get tree-ish, while other awoken trees [who began as trees] can get Entish, emphasis on the -ish part... but if so, yet if some are actually 'limb-lithe' and can talk to Treebeard, are they 'becoming' Ents?

And with respect to The Silmarillion text and the 1963 letter, are the Elves awaking the [or some] spirits summoned by Yavanna -- that is, sleeping souls inside trees, as Galadriel thinks is possible, in part [see below]. Although one would think they were all ready awake or waking, as long as the Elves appeared first.

Hmm.

The text that seems to have been the source for Of Aule And Yavanna appears to date 'at the earliest to 1958-59, but may well be later than that (...) This was followed by a text made on my father's later typewriter (see X. 300) that expanded the first draft, but from which scarcely anything of any significance in that draft was excluded. It bears no title, in the published Silmarillion it was used to form the second part of Chapter 2 Of Aule and Yavanna (...) This was of course a purely editorial combination.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, War of the Jewels

And then we have a draft letter dated 1963:

'No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took on the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees.'

Christopher Tolkien writes that it seems likely enough that this part of the letter, and the text about the spirits summoned by Yavanna belong 'to much the same time'. Arguably so, but the draft letter could actually be later too, as on X. 300 Christopher explains that the earliest letter made on his father's later typewriter dates to 1959.

It's interesting (maybe) that in the text used for The Silmarillion, one gets the feeling that the Ents were surely referenced in the Music [referenced as these spirits anyway], if one gave enough heed to all the voices. The description even seems to say that Eru himself did not miss this, of course...

... but yet in the letter the High Elves in general say otherwise, even if some, including the great Galadriel, appear to have a similar opinion as was chosen for the construced Silmarillion.

Or something else

I any case this chapter is an edited part of the early Silmarillion, again raising the question of how Tolkien himself intended to introduce the Ents in an 'origin context' is his ultimate Silmarillion -- which was arguably to be characterized as largely Mannish [according to various late characterizations by JRRT himself], if based on a measure of Elvish thought or texts, and contact with Elves.