Sex Amongst the Maiar (and the Other Beings in Arda)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

But I still view Sauron as being too busy with the whole megalomania thing to be bothered with the relationship or even physical part of sex.

That makes me think of Bored of the Rings, which had Sorhed (Sauron) and Schlob (Shelob) being the parents of "nine strapping wraiths".

Really though, why would Maia want or need physical relationships? They weren't necessary from a biological perspective. Maia were only "guests" in Arda, not part of it (Melian is a special case: her being smitten with Thingol was plainly something fated to happen: she had no will in the matter).

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

After Sauron's physical form was destroyed, he was not a giant eyeball but, well, I imagine him as being just energy at that point. He still has a will and opinions, but it's not like he can act them out. I guess he's mostly like a ghost in physicality.

Which time losing his body do you mean?

He kind of made a habit of it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That makes me think of Bored of the Rings, which had Sorhed (Sauron) and Schlob (Shelob) being the parents of "nine strapping wraiths".

Really though, why would Maia want or need physical relationships? They weren't necessary from a biological perspective. Maia were only "guests" in Arda, not part of it (Melian is a special case: her being smitten with Thingol was plainly something fated to happen: she had no will in the matter).

Why would the Valar? Yet they did. Or at least had spouses.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Why would the Valar? Yet they did. Or at least had spouses.

Spouses, yes. Relationships? Obviously. Some seemed to have the need for companionship to (I shudder to say it) "complete" them. The physical side is what I question though. I would posit that physicality was even a "base" concept for them (hence Morgoth's "evil lust" for Lúthien).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The physical side is what I question though. I would posit that physicality was even a "base" concept for them (hence Morgoth's "evil lust" for Lúthien).

I agree. I wish I could find that quote about the difference between Valar marriages and those of the Eruhíni, but maybe I just imagined it...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Which time losing his body do you mean?

He kind of made a habit of it.

Haha, you're right. He really did.

I don't have the Sil here to reference right now, but I believe that none of the valar had children, and the only maia to have a child was Melian. Was childbearing even possible for these beings?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Was childbearing even possible for these beings?

I would say any of the Maia would have been capable, but would have had to have emulated Melian in taking a 'real' body along the lines of the Children of Ilúvatar: material, needing nourishment, water, and sleep; and able to be 'killed', ala Saruman.

That does mean the Istari could have sired children, and so could Sauron, since his physical form was tied to Arda.

[ArcusCalion]

The various creatures of Melkor are almost entirely said to have been birthed from couplings with Incarnate Maiar and lesser beings. In reality, it seems very difficult to address certain issues such as: how did dragons arise? Glaurung "grew" as time passed, and therefore seems to have been a real Incarnate, and Smaug was similarly a "young" drake at some point. All of these imply aging. But as Tolkien says multiple times in the Myths Transformed essays, Eru would never allow Melkor to create life by giving his creations fëar. This was done for Aulë only because of his purity of heart and the goodness of his purpose and obedience to Eru. Melkor has none of these traits, and yet he is able to create many many races that clearly have independent thought and function when his Will is not moving them, as the dragons of later ages after his banishment prove. How then are these Incarnate beings (clearly in possession of fëar) existing? The only explanation is that of Melian, the Maia who procreated with an Incarnate and produced a viable and powerful offspring. Tolkien clearly thought about this most in terms of the Orcs (cf. the Boldogs) but the principle applies to the dragons, werewolves, trolls, and vampires of the legentarium as well. Melkor can corrupt existing animals (made by Yavanna or Orome or Vana) as is said in the story of the beginning of days: "...became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood." Thus, by corrupting some existing creature of Middle-earth and mating them with a truly Incarnate Maia, there could be a viable race of beings with thought and "free-will" after the measure of the Eruhini.

All of this brings me back to the idea of sex. I agree with many in the thread that the Valar did not procreate, since they were not bound to their bodies. They assumed Fanar only, in order to interact with the Children. Their "marriages" are not chiefly of the body, but of the sublime union of spirit with spirit in intrinsic one-ness: the very Catholic ideal of what the supernatural side of the sacrament of marriage is (as Tolkien knew well). As others have said, the more the Valar enjoy the "fruits of the earth," the more they become bound to it. This idea is actually tied up in the concept of the Valar growing "old." In the Prophecy of Mandos it is said that "When the Valar grow old" Morgoth will return. If they are immortal beings the only way in which they might age is by being bound to the physical Orma of Arda more closely. This comes (as many of you have pointed out) by prolonged inhabitance in a truly Incarnate form. Melian and the Istari (as well as the Boldogs and first dragons/werewolves/trolls/etc.) must by necessity have been fully Incarnate, as they were only released by death and the union of their bodies and their ability to procreate is intrinsic. The Valar merely presented a fana to the Incarnates who saw them. fana literally means "cloud" and the very idea of its immateriality is inherent in the name. They were not true Incarnations, as Melian and the Istari were, and thus had no bodily need to perform functions. Sex is the very foundation of biology, and so if the Valar did indeed partake of it with one another, they must have done so extremely sparingly, lest they become bound to the physical realm too much.

Morgoth clearly did this, as he INcarnated himself and poured his "begetting" power into many creatures and beings. This seems to imply that he himself was the literal father of many of his corrupted races, and in this act of "dissemination" (which literally means spreading the seed) he became bound to the earth. His lust for Luthien can then be explained by the rule of the body over his spirit, which was a symbol of his downfall. Sexual desire is not evil, even in an Ainu, as Melian demonstrates. However, lust for domination of another through sex without love is an evil in this world, and Morgoth fell victim to that.

Sauron, however, never had to "beget" races of beings. He changes his form so much throughout his existence that it can clearly be seen to be a fana, and not a true Body. Thus, he would not have been ruled by the bodily desires of Morgoth. His "lust" happened only after his "begetting" of the Ring, which was his greatest act of engaging with the physical realm on a spiritual level. The Ring is Sauron's sex-drive, and thus he has no need for actual sex.

The bottom line is: the Valar could have sex, but probably didn't because of the binding to the terrestrial world that it brings, but may Maiar certainly did (and not all of them evil, as the Skinchangers, talking ravens, and the Great Eagles exist independently of the Maiar).