Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Taking the 1917 Fall of Gondolin as my source, I can at least say that Maeglin - Meglin, at that point - deserved to die at the time he was killed: he was busy trying to abduct Idril and murder Earendil at the time. In a war, killing someone who is attacking you is fairly acceptable.

As a more general 'was M[a]eglin irredemable', I think the 1917 text gives a fairly firm yes to that, too. There's no indication that he was lost for a long time: he goes to the hills, wanders off into the mountains, gets captured by Orcs, and almost immediately says 'Hey, I'm the prince of Gondolin and I can tell you how to destroy it' (he says this to his captors, not to Morgoth or any higher-ups; all indications are that he just launched straight into high treason). He was also sent home 'lest at his absence men suspect somewhat'; that implies that in the events that actually occurred, he wasn't gone over-long.

How do the other versions of the tale match up? (I'm just working through the Fall of Gondolin standalone here.) The Sketch of the Mythology tells us that he went 'far afield' over the mountains, and only betrays Gondolin in Angband - though his lust for Idril and hatred for Tuor make it easier for him. Tuor still rescues his family from Maeglin and kills him.

The Quenta Noldorinwa informs us that Maeglin 'purposed to possess' Idril, and in this case his getting lost is because he 'went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied'. It seems that Maeglin was prone to going off on long mining expeditions; there was no way for people to know that this time he'd gotten lost.

However, this time it's threat of torture that leads to his betrayal... but he's also explicitly tasked with helping the invasion from the inside. Yet again Tuor has to rescue his family, and this time Maeglin's death seems to be from falling over the wall during a fight.

And that's... it, as far as the source texts go (Of Tuor &c never got that far). From all the evidence, I would say that:

-Maeglin was super creepy about Idril. Admittedly that isn't a capital crime.
-No-one had reason to believe he had been captured; he was just off on another long mining trip.
-He was probably breaking the law of the city already on those trips.
-He wasn't tortured into revealing the secrets of Gondolin, but gave them up in return for his safety and great rewards (usually rule of the city + Idril).
-At his death, he was actively attacking Idril and Earendil; Tuor's actions were in defense of his family.

I'm going to say yes, based on everything we know, he deserved to die.

hS

[Urwen]

I concur.


I confess I'm rather attached to him for some reason......


(I had a picture of him hanged on my bedroom wall for a while, can you believe that?)

[Urwen]

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS

[Urwen]

You're very thorough.....I like it.


In fact, part of the reason I made this was so I could discuss things with you.


I am also curious about what sort of punishment he'd get. There aren't many details about the punishments in Halls of Mandos, so I'd like you to tackle this one.


This is my last question regarding him, at least for now. I might throw some additional ones later, should they spring to mind.


P.S: Recent comments have made me change my signature.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage...

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage...

You ain't experimenting on Maeglin, or on la familia. Or on any of my favorites. Not for as long as I stand.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Who thinks of what, but the medical student in me wants to assess the extent to which the Elves' health and biological resilience applied to internal organ damage...

Do it! I'm not sure what the best evidence regarding blunt-force trauma is... Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, maybe?

Originally Posted by Urwen

You're very thorough.....I like it.

In fact, part of the reason I made this was so I could discuss things with you.

Well, I'm always happy to talk... the only problem is sorting my wild theorising from the facts!

Originally Posted by Urwen

I am also curious about what sort of punishment he'd get. There aren't many details about the punishments in Halls of Mandos, so I'd like you to tackle this one.

Hmm... punishment? You're right that the Silm doesn't go i to the details of the Halls much, but BoLT tells us a lot more:

"There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again... go forth to laugh and sing again."

There's no word here of punishment, except in the length of their stay; it's widely asserted that Feanor is never getting out, but the Silm tells us that Finrod left very quickly. That's Mandos' judgement: how long you have to stay there.

The Prophecy of Mandos confirms that this is actually a punishment, in the Silm: "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you." But the implication seems to be that the only direct punitive action is locking you up with your memories of what you did - unfiltered, one assumes, by the delusions of righteousness we create in life.

Interestingly, there is punishment of the dead in BoLT - but only of Men. Fui, who's kind of a dark fusion of Vaire and Nienna, judges them in her hall that's even grimmer than Mandos. Some she sends on to Mandos (for reasons unspecified), some get to go live in Valmar, most she sends down to camp on the plains of Arvalin until the End of Days - but some she straight up kicks back over the mountains to be captured by Melkor.

Fortunately, this whole idea was entirely rejected by the time of the Silm; but Mandos as a place of waiting and reflection seems to have remained.

One idea I haven't been able to source tonight is that some Elven shades might never reach Mandos, but be captured by Morgoth. I know I've seen it bandied about; if it holds true in the later canon, then the only named defector to Morgoth would probably be a good candidate - and we can assume that the Dark Lord wouldn't be inclined to treat his new toy gently...

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

You ain't experimenting on Maeglin, or on la familia. Or on any of my favorites. Not for as long as I stand.

Needs no experiment, just an ultrasound machine after his fall...

Occasionally my brain runs on autopilot down familiar tracts, and I end up in weird places. Like I may start wondering how quickly Hurin's kidney function would tank if Morgoth didn't let him drink, and I have to remind myself that creatinine clearance doesn't apply to humans who are magically put into a state of trance-like existence for many many years. Or I read about the Houses of Healing and start debating which patient is the most acidotic, and remind myself that the Black Breath is not supposed to be explicable by physiology to begin with. In some stories it's fun to diagnose the characters, but Tolkien's books are not meant for that.

But what I wonder about most in the fantasy universes is how the heart functions are split between the two Time Lord hearts, how the cardiovascular system is connected, and how electrical activity and contractility are coordinated. This is not just my brain reacting to trigger words, this is a legitimate question. Does no one else wonder what the two-heart physiology is like?