Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

What land? That's a mountain range! And I doubt Orcs are much good at accurate mapping, so the fact that there was room for a city in the middle wouldn't have been at all obvious. Check out this map of the Old World to see how tricky accurate maps can be (can you even recognise Italy?), and then consider that on a flat world, you can't get any location information from the sun or stars: it's literally all 'how far have I walked and in what direction?'.

Bear in mind also that the other Hidden Kingdom, Nargothrond, was almost certainly known by Morgoth to be underground (he must have taken captives who knew of it, after all), just like Menegroth. The obvious assumption would be that Turgon had done the same thing, somewhere. The other elves didn't dig into mountains, though - and even if the thought that Turgon might be taking after himself and the dwarves had occurred to Morgoth, he'd probably have looked at the Ered Wethrin rather than clear across Sirion.

Or Brethil, which was steadfastly defended by the House of Haleth. Surely they must be hiding something more interesting than just a Mortal rabble in there?

The one he actually should have spotted is the Havens of Sirion. Big M had the run of the entirety of Beleriand west of Amon Ereb, and yet the Sons of Feanor still beat him to the Silmaril? Did he just give up and go home after taking out Gondolin?

hS

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, I guess that my replies will always be overshadowed by yours.....

I'm pretty sure people read up past the most recent comment. I certainly always do, and reply to anything that I feel I have something to say on. Given that your comment was a claim that Morgoth did know where Gondolin was, and my whole post was on the premise that he didn't, my only options for comments were 'I think you're wrong', or 'I think you're wrong and here's the reference to prove it'. Telling people flatly that they're wrong feels like stifling discussion, though.

For the record, though:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Doriath

Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved.

Morgoth only found out where Gondolin was when Hurin gave it away; then, yes, he needed a traitor to tell him the way in and prepare the way.

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

hS

[Huinesoron]

See above:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

If you're talking about the music thread: personally I just don't like watching videos very much, and am usually in a place (*cough*work*cough*) where doing so would be ill-advised. So barring a very persuasive post on why it's worth watching, I probably won't have anything to contribute over there. I think it's great that you posted it - I didn't even know that sub-forum existed! - but it's not something I'm interested in doing.

EDIT: Response to a deleted post.

[Urwen]

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Then I'll ask here, what I asked there, more or less: To what length would Beleg have gone for Turin's sake if he wasn't killed?

I think Beleg would have gone with Turin all the way, to make sure Turin lived and that he stayed of the right moral path. But if Turin would stubbornly and irreversibly insist on following some morally questionable activity, it's possible Beleg would then leave him.

Basically I think Beleg would keep doing what he was doing before.

[Urwen]

Yes. I wish I had a friend like Beleg. That friendship was so good while it lasted.



By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

By the way, you should read Kalevala. I think you'll find the main character of that poem interesting.

I read a synopsis, I am somewhat familiar with it. I would indeed like the story - just maybe not in that format.


Going back to the discussion of Turin and the Curse and the what-ifs, I came upon this interesting quote:

Originally Posted by COH

Nellas of Doriath never saw him again, and his shadow passed from her.

This makes it sound like Turin's "shadow" was an ever-present entity, and one that he would not have avoided had he stayed in Doriath. In a way it implies that whatever he does and whoever he associates with will be overcast by it. If he didn't ruin Finduilas, he would have ruined Nellas. If he didn't ruin Nargothrond, it would have been Doriath.

And I still stand by my earlier argument that whatever he does he will worse than fail by the nature of the Curse, but his problem is that he always rises high and so the stakes are always high and the disaster is big. He can't keep his head down, not meddle in the big affairs, keep to himself in a quiet way. No, he has to lead and lead big, as big as he can, so the crash is big too. Had he lead some quiet reclusive life on a farmstead or in the woods or something, his doom might have been proportionally small. And he tried for a while - with the outlaws, and later before his integration into Brethil - but he just can't be less than he is. He is a great man, a great fighter, a great leader, and he can't not be the best he can be.