Tidbits of Curiosity

[Urwen]

So you believe he did deserve it?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So you believe he did deserve it?

Why not ask the other way around: what do you think did he deserve? What could have gone differently so that he lived? Or maybe died differently? So - do you think he deserved a different end?

[Urwen]

Well, if you asked me, they were bound to notice he was missing, so they should have searched for him. Maybe the whole thing could have been averted if they did.


And he was not merely one of the multitudes either. He was practically royalty, and quite possibly the heir to the city (There was no law that allowed women to inherit at the time). So there was no reason not to look for him.


Furthermore, if they had organized a search-and-rescue operation, they could have healed him from the physical/mental wounds. And they could have helped him overcome his lust as well.


The whole thing reeks of neglect to me.

[Huinesoron]

Taking the 1917 Fall of Gondolin as my source, I can at least say that Maeglin - Meglin, at that point - deserved to die at the time he was killed: he was busy trying to abduct Idril and murder Earendil at the time. In a war, killing someone who is attacking you is fairly acceptable.

As a more general 'was M[a]eglin irredemable', I think the 1917 text gives a fairly firm yes to that, too. There's no indication that he was lost for a long time: he goes to the hills, wanders off into the mountains, gets captured by Orcs, and almost immediately says 'Hey, I'm the prince of Gondolin and I can tell you how to destroy it' (he says this to his captors, not to Morgoth or any higher-ups; all indications are that he just launched straight into high treason). He was also sent home 'lest at his absence men suspect somewhat'; that implies that in the events that actually occurred, he wasn't gone over-long.

How do the other versions of the tale match up? (I'm just working through the Fall of Gondolin standalone here.) The Sketch of the Mythology tells us that he went 'far afield' over the mountains, and only betrays Gondolin in Angband - though his lust for Idril and hatred for Tuor make it easier for him. Tuor still rescues his family from Maeglin and kills him.

The Quenta Noldorinwa informs us that Maeglin 'purposed to possess' Idril, and in this case his getting lost is because he 'went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied'. It seems that Maeglin was prone to going off on long mining expeditions; there was no way for people to know that this time he'd gotten lost.

However, this time it's threat of torture that leads to his betrayal... but he's also explicitly tasked with helping the invasion from the inside. Yet again Tuor has to rescue his family, and this time Maeglin's death seems to be from falling over the wall during a fight.

And that's... it, as far as the source texts go (Of Tuor &c never got that far). From all the evidence, I would say that:

-Maeglin was super creepy about Idril. Admittedly that isn't a capital crime.
-No-one had reason to believe he had been captured; he was just off on another long mining trip.
-He was probably breaking the law of the city already on those trips.
-He wasn't tortured into revealing the secrets of Gondolin, but gave them up in return for his safety and great rewards (usually rule of the city + Idril).
-At his death, he was actively attacking Idril and Earendil; Tuor's actions were in defense of his family.

I'm going to say yes, based on everything we know, he deserved to die.

hS

[Urwen]

I concur.


I confess I'm rather attached to him for some reason......


(I had a picture of him hanged on my bedroom wall for a while, can you believe that?)

[Urwen]

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Anyway, this brings me to my next question. There are some theories that his fall didn't kill him at all. What do you think?

"Great was the fall of his body, and it smote Amon Gwareth three times ere it pitched in the midmost of the flames."

You're right that it doesn't actually say that he dies (just that his name has 'gone out in shame'). But, I mean... that sounds pretty deadly.

It is possible that Elven toughness plus cleverly-wrought mail might protect someone against a short fall (as Frodo's mithril protected him against a spear-thrust), so the question becomes: how tall are the walls of Gondolin, and how tall is Amon Gwareth?

The FoG tells us that Tuor and Voronwe reached the bottom of the stairs 'after a day's light march', and that they reached top at 'the last sunlight'. We know it's a long stair, but how long?

Perhaps it's easier to come at this the other way: if Maeglin struck the rock three times, that makes for four impacts total. Assuming he comes to a complete vertical halt each time, and assuming all four impacts are evenly spaced, how far can each fall be before an impact is unsurvivable?

A quick Google turns up the fact that 90% of 80-foot falls are fatal to humans. Under Earth's gravity, that's about a 2-second drop, at which point you'll be moving at about 40 mph. (That ties in with how dangerous a 40mph car crash is to a pedestrian.) If we assume that 4 such impacts would kill even an elf, we end up with a maximum survivable height of Gondolin plus Amon Gwareth of 320 ft. That's significantly shorter than a large cathedral; Amon Gwareth would hardly be worth mentioning if it were that small! So the hill must be taller, the falls lomger, the impacts harder... yeah, I don't think Maeglin's coming out of this one alive.

hS