12 Of the Flight of the Noldor

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

A reason could be that he wanted to avoid the same storry for the wifes of Felagund and Turgon. When Anairë wife of Turgon stayed in Aman, the wife of Felagund had to go with him into Middle-earth.

Gildor Inglorion from LotR comes to mind another possible reason.

The question with this change is: do we keep the rescue of Idril during the crossing of the ice? Up to now I considered here being a small child at that point, but that might have been wrong from the start.

Respectfully
Findegil

I see nothing wrong with keeping the rescue of Idril, and judging by the NoME, Idril was definitely not a child, though she was young.

But I think we definitely have to change Elenwe > Alaire (I would avoid 'Anaire', as I stated in my previous reply), regardless of whether or not we reject the 'Elenwe dying at Helcaraxe' story.

[Findegil]

Having read the source text now a bit farther I am not longer sure that we have to change {Elenwë}[Alairë]. The text in HoME XI, Meaglin reads:

'Turgon... had no heir; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë': here A has 'Turgon ... had no heir: for his wife, Alairë, was of the Vanyar and would not forsake Valinor'. On the page of jottings that concludes the abandoned later Tale of Tuor (see Unfinished Tales p. 56) a note which I did not include says that 'Alairë remained in Aman'. That this was the case because she was a Vanya is reminiscent of the story of Amarie, beloved of Felagund, who was a Vanya, 'and was not permitted to go with him into exile' (p. 44, $109). The typescript B as typed has Alairë, but on both A and B(ii), not on B(i), my father corrected (presumptively in 1970) the name to Anairë. The substitution of Elenwë in The Silmarillion was based on the Elvish genealogies of 1959 (see pp. 229, 350), where Anairë (defined as a Vanya 'who remained in Tuna') was later corrected to 'Elenwë who perished in the Ice'; on the same table at the same time Anairë was entered as the wife of Fingolfin, with the note that she 'remained in Aman'.
In a note added to the typescript of the Annals of Aman (X.128, $163) my father said that in the crossing of the Helkaraxe 'Turgon's wife was lost and he had then only one daughter and no other heir. Turgon was nearly lost himself in attempts to rescue his wife - and he had less love for the Sons of Feanor than any other'; but Turgon's wife is not named.

(Underlining of later was added by me.)
First to the Alairë/Elenwë change reported here: the A text from 1951 and the typescript B(i) and Carbon Copy B(ii) as typed from 1970 or later have the name Alairë and that is changed in A and the carbon copy B(ii) but not in B(i) to Anairë. Christopher Tolkiens statment her means, I think' that the corretion in the genealogies of 'Anairë a Vanyar who remained in Tuna' to 'Elenwë who perished in the Ice' was later than the text of 'Meaglin'. And at the same time giving the name and the story of staying back in Tuna to the wife of Fingolfin. As both names are found in The Shibboleth, which is at least later then 1968 I would assume the following sequence:
a) Meaglin text written in 1959 with Turgons wife named Alairë and staying in Aman.
b) Meaglin text typed in 1970 with Turgons wife named Alairë and staying in Aman.
c) Shibboleth written with Fingolfins wife named Anairë and Turgons wife named Elenwë and perishing in the Ice.
d) Meaglin A and B cusorily corrected with Alairë => Anairë

b) and c) could be exchanged if the retaining of Alairë instead of Elenwë is assume an over sight.

As Arvegil145 mentioned already JRR Tolkiens memory was not fully reliable so late in his life. Therefore I would assume that when he corrected the 'Meaglin'-text he had forgotten the change of Alairë => Elenwë and the story of breaking Ice. Therefore what he corrected was just the name (on some linguistical ground, I would think).

In effect that would mean we have keep Elenwë and her perishing in the Ice for the wife of Turgon!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Having read the source text now a bit farther I am not longer sure that we have to change {Elenwë}[Alairë]. The text in HoME XI, Meaglin readsUnderlining of later was added by me.)
First to the Alairë/Elenwë change reported here: the A text from 1951 and the typescript B(i) and Carbon Copy B(ii) as typed from 1970 or later have the name Alairë and that is changed in A and the carbon copy B(ii) but not in B(i) to Anairë. Christopher Tolkiens statment her means, I think' that the corretion in the genealogies of 'Anairë a Vanyar who remained in Tuna' to 'Elenwë who perished in the Ice' was later than the text of 'Meaglin'. And at the same time giving the name and the story of staying back in Tuna to the wife of Fingolfin. As both names are found in The Shibboleth, which is at least later then 1968 I would assume the following sequence:
a) Meaglin text written in 1959 with Turgons wife named Alairë and staying in Aman.
b) Meaglin text typed in 1970 with Turgons wife named Alairë and staying in Aman.
c) Shibboleth written with Fingolfins wife named Anairë and Turgons wife named Elenwë and perishing in the Ice.
d) Meaglin A and B cusorily corrected with Alairë => Anairë

b) and c) could be exchanged if the retaining of Alairë instead of Elenwë is assume an over sight.

As Arvegil145 mentioned already JRR Tolkiens memory was not fully reliable so late in his life. Therefore I would assume that when he corrected the 'Meaglin'-text he had forgotten the change of Alairë => Elenwë and the story of breaking Ice. Therefore what he corrected was just the name (on some linguistical ground, I would think).

In effect that would mean we have keep Elenwë and her perishing in the Ice for the wife of Turgon!

Respectfully
Findegil

By 'later', I assume you mean later than 'Maeglin A'?

Besides, I'm not sure about your dating of the 'Shibboleth' - is there any evidence that it postdates 'Maeglin B'?


Other than that, though, I think you make a pretty good case.

[gondowe]

If my opinion is of any use, I agree with Findegil in keeping Elenwë and the entire ice episode. The dating of the texts is somewhat ambiguous and the corrections to them could predate Shibboleth. In any case, I prefer to keep the stories 'finished' rather than ambiguous notes in that sense. I consider it a similar case, although of a different nature, to that of Hador/Magor.
Another 'could' I know, but from c.1960 onwards Tolkien's changing texts and ideas give us no frank certainty. Unless they have a date written personally by the Professor himself.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I think that the correction in the genealogies is later than the making of Meaglin B. But we have no outer evidence for this dating.

The outer evidence make The Shibboleth (1968 or later) and Meaglin B (1970 or later) contemporay documents. But the internal logic of changes suggest The Shibboleth to be later (in my oppinion).

However that might be, JRR Tolkiens memory so late in his life was not good enough for being sure about these things. So even if my dating (or rather sequencing) is wrong, the inner logic of such changes suggest strongly that Elenwë perishing in the Ice was what Tolkien wanted for the wife of Turgon.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

I think that the correction in the genealogies is later than the making of Meaglin B. But we have no outer evidence for this dating.

The outer evidence make The Shibboleth (1968 or later) and Meaglin B (1970 or later) contemporay documents. But the internal logic of changes suggest The Shibboleth to be later (in my oppinion).

However that might be, JRR Tolkiens memory so late in his life was not good enough for being sure about these things. So even if my dating (or rather sequencing) is wrong, the inner logic of such changes suggest strongly that Elenwë perishing in the Ice was what Tolkien wanted for the wife of Turgon.

Respectfully
Findegil

Since I am, admittedly, biased in regards to this question (I really don't want to get rid of the story of Elenwe), maybe someone else can give their thoughts on this?

[Findegil]

Didn't you raise the doubts about that story yourself?

What do you expcat from some one else to do now? Stepping up and searching arguments for Elenwë and her pershing in the ice being dropped?

Or was it just a way to ask for more oppinions beside that of gondowe you and me?

Respectfully
Findegil