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05-20-2002, 05:15 PM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Blue Wizards
Tolkein speaks of the two other istari Pallando and Alatar who went to the East and failed their quest like Radagast and Saruman did. My question is how far into the East did they go? Were they the reason the Easterlings were allied wih Sauron, like Saruman's Dunlendings, or did they go all the way East to Cuivenen for some reason? It seems they are forgotten and are mentioned only in the UT. I'd like to know your thoughts on what role they played during the War of the Ring and after and where exactly they might have went.
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"Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang |
05-20-2002, 06:49 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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By the way, I love your name. Turin is one of my favorite characters!
Ok, good question because I've wondered about this too. I don't think Tolkien explained them too much. He never really said much about them other than what's in Unfinished Tales, like you said. I guess they were pretty much not even noticed. They weren't in the White Council either were they? I don't think they were, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. But I think that since there wasn't anything about what role they played in the time of the War of the Ring, I always guessed that they just forgot completely the reason why they came to Middle-Earth. Most likely they just got caught up in the surroundings....? or something like that. Ok, let me some up because I know I must have lost you some place during all of my babbling. People must hate it when I post something! Ok, Pallando and Alatar probably went so far East, not WAY far, but far enough where people forgot about them and they probably isolated themselves where they didn't talk to people much. They didn't do what they were sent there to do, and I don't think they had anything to do with the War of the Ring. That's just my opinion though. But, they could have been apart of it, like helping prepare the armies and such, like that's maybe what Tolien meant by failing their job like Saruman. Hope my babbling helped!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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05-20-2002, 08:06 PM | #3 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I think that they were one of those intentional enigmas that Tolkien placed in Middle earth to create that depth that we all know and love.
Or at least that's what I tell myself when I'm lying awake at night fretting over exactly who the Blue Wizards were, why they came, what they did, and if they succeeded. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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05-20-2002, 08:21 PM | #4 |
Pile O'Bones
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I have to agree, I like that the blue wizards were left shrouded in mystery. It leaves a bit to the imagination. I also like, on a related note, how the history of hobbits is a bit cloudy too.
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05-21-2002, 11:42 AM | #5 |
Pile O'Bones
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Yes, I don't think that they had too much effect on the WotR otherwise Tolkein would have mentioned them more than what he did. But then again he might have put them in for the sole purpose of atmosphere so that the world seems a little larger. I don't know...
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"Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang |
05-21-2002, 11:51 AM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Radagast didn't do much good aither. he helped gandalf to escape from Orthanc, but even that was by accident. He didn't care for anything but animals. Maybe the blue wizards were like him, and if they had stayed in the western part of ME, they wouldn't have had any greater role. They would have been like Radagast. Or that's what I think Tolkien would have done with them.
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05-22-2002, 05:56 AM | #7 | |
Regenerating Ringkeeper
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The Blue Wizards (Ithryn Luin) didn't have names in ME. The names Pallando & Allatar are not made up by Tolkien or his son, but by ICE (Iron Crown Enterprises). Tolkien has said something about the Blue Wizards:
in UT - Istari - Note 3 Christopher Tolkien writes this: Quote:
greetings, lathspell
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05-22-2002, 10:25 AM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
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But the names Pallando and Alatar are mentioned in the section on the Istari, in a sketchy narrative written by Tolkien. Nowhere does it say that they were created by ICE. I seriously doubt that the names would be included in the book. Christopher Tolkien is very particular about what he puts in the books. These names were created by Tolkien himself.
[ May 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nufaciel ]
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05-22-2002, 01:25 PM | #9 |
Itinerant Songster
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The names Pallando (which seems to mean "far wanderer") and Alatar are in the notes following "The Istari" in the Unfinished Tales. I had thought that Tolkien named which of the Valar each of the five chiefs of the Istari served as emissaries, or mentees (reciprocal of "mentor") of. I can find Olorin as form Lorien and Nessa, Curunir from Aule, and Radagast from Yavanna, but from whom come the blue? Anybody know?
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05-22-2002, 01:37 PM | #10 |
Pile O'Bones
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I remember reading who they came from I'll try to find it later when I'm not busy, but I do know that the only reason they were there is because Saruman asked for them. Or one of them asked for the other. Something like that...I think it was Pallando was chosen and he asked for Alatar to be taken also.
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"Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang |
05-22-2002, 05:38 PM | #11 | |
Wight
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From UT:
Quote:
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05-22-2002, 05:40 PM | #12 | |
Wight
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continued:
Quote:
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05-23-2002, 03:45 AM | #13 |
Regenerating Ringkeeper
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Yes, I read that now too... I hadn't finished the Istari-part in UT yet. Quite stupid to say such than.
greetings, lathspell
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
05-23-2002, 04:11 AM | #14 |
Itinerant Songster
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Yes, I was interested in the speculative value of knowing that the blue wizards came from Orome, the great hunter; but UT already speculates that it was due to knowledge of further lands; on the other hand, if P and A were "Maia of Orome", we may infer that their gifts somehow lined up with Orome's interests and strengths. Tamer of Wild Beasts? Great Hunter? I don't have The Sil in front of me; what other titles and strengths could we propound onto the blue (in keeping with Tolkien's characterizations of the other 3) based on Orome?
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05-23-2002, 08:51 AM | #15 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Tolkien gives various and conflicting accounts of the blue wizards. Though they are called Alatar and Pallando in the UT fragment, they are called in another fragment from HoMe XII 'Romestamo and Morinehtar' (I believe), 'East-helper and Dark-slayer'. In one place, they are said to have failed, but in another Tolkien speculates that had in not been for them, Sauron's strength in the east would have been even greater. They are mentioned as having possibly founded magic cults among the Easterlings.
Tolkien's thoughts on the Ithrin Luin seem to be hopelessly confused and difficult to get a straight story out of. |
06-27-2003, 06:22 PM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think one was sent to the Easterlings in Rhun (to get them to fight Sauron) and the other to th Avari/moriquendi in Cuivienen (to get them to either fight Sauron or go to Valinor). Either way, they probably failed (but they could still be trying...) Also, like countless other similar characters by Tolkien, one might have turned to evil but the other did not and continued to work for good. This isn't "official", just random ideas of mine.
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06-27-2003, 08:21 PM | #17 |
Wight
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Tolkien said that Olórin was the only one who stayed faithful to his mission, so we do know that they failed. However, other than that, I think that Tolkien left them as a mystery to make Middle Earth more real and much bigger than what is written in LotR.
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06-27-2003, 10:30 PM | #18 |
Haunting Spirit
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i agree with Kurahar. Tolkien left this enigma for us to ponder, just as we are doing now. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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12-24-2010, 10:01 PM | #19 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Tolkien's references to the "failure" of the Blue Wizards are very contradictive. In one place he writes that they failed their mission and started magic cults among the Easterlings instead. Somewhere else I read that they did all they could to prevent more soliders going off to help Sauron, and I'm quite sure that it said that they succeeded, not failed. Well, they couldn't stop the whole army, but they lessened the numbers significantly.
I often wondered why Saruman came with them. Wanted to "see them off"?
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