The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-20-2004, 10:37 AM   #1
Hookbill the Goomba
Alive without breath
 
Hookbill the Goomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Tolkien

I think Sauron would have realised Morgoth from the Void, We don’t know if he knew that Melko wanted to completely destroy Eá. I don’t think he would have joined him in the first place if he did, Sauron was promised to ruler over much of the world, so that would seem to be the incentive for him to become evil. I still think he was faithful to Morgoth as in Numenor he tyres to persuade them to worship him, as he says;
Quote:
His name is Melkor, Lord of All, giver of freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.
Found in "The Silmarillion" Akallabéth
It would seem that even after his master's downfall, he was willing to do anything to get him back. Sauron perhaps realised how powerful Melkor was and so though that if he was going to take over, then he'd need Melkor to do it. Perhaps that is why he made the one ring, to try and increase his own power as he was robbed of Melkor.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it’s the best explanation I could think of for the actual making of the ring. Look at it from Sauron's point of view, he'd think to himself
"Without Melkor I need more power, Why not make a ring? Why not go mad?"

I know a lot of this has been said, but this is what i think. Using Melkor as a symbol seems unlikely. Whether it was at this point or not, but I think its Gandalf who says;
Quote:
The only measure known to Sauron is desire, desire for power...
This shows that Sauron would probably try to get power at any cost, even if that meant becoming second best for a time. I suspect that, soon enough, he would have devised a plan to over through Melkor, as Sauron was a cunning little Miar, so If he had released Morgoth (If he realised there was no other way he could win) he would have planned to overthrow him once he had done the hard work for him... what an evil little creature he is. >=D.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once.
THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...

Last edited by Hookbill the Goomba; 03-20-2004 at 10:52 AM.
Hookbill the Goomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 07:32 PM   #2
Orcrist
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Mines of Moria
Posts: 239
Orcrist has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

morgoth and melkor are the same person right? sorry i still have to read the silmarillion
__________________
"A wedding! I love weddings! Drinks all around!"
Jack Sparrow
Orcrist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2004, 09:51 PM   #3
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe Yes, Orcrist, they are the same...

Quote:
And Ar-Pharazôn said: "Who is this Lord of Darkness?"
Then...Sauron spoke to the King...saying: "...his name is Melkor..."

(The Silmarillion, Akallabêth - emphasis mine)
Sauron had more purpose for Morgoth outside Arda than in it. Very, very clever...

So still, Sauron wants Morgoth where he is, not running wild all over Middle-earth. It could very well wreck his plans.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
The plot, cut, defeated.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2004, 04:35 AM   #4
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
First of all, I don't believe that Sauron actually needed Morgoth to return. He was in a pretty good position throughout the Second and Third Ages. True, he did need to create the One Ring, which eventually provided the means to destroy him, but it was only at the very end that this weakness was exploited. Sauron did not have to deal with the foes that Morgoth had in the First Age: heroes like Fingolfin, Beren, Húrin, Finrod by the dozens, and Noldor by the thousands (at least). Sauron was more than up to the challenge of dominating men, through the use of both other men and fearsome spirits such as the Nazgûl, and there were relatively few powerful Eldar to oppose him.

Secondly, I don't believe Sauron had the loyalty to feel an obligation to release his (former?) master. In the example of Ossë and Ulmo we see the nature of the relationship between the Valar and their Maiar. It is not one of complete servitude or devotion, at least not in all instances. Curumo and Sauron both defied Aulë, and even Olórin was not completely faithful to Lórien, preferring to consort with Nienna instead.

So my answer is NO, Sauron would not have released Morgoth from the Void, and had no intention of trying. And I bet that's the first thing Morgoth brings up when they meet again after Sauron's departure from Middle-Earth! That is where Sauron was sent, right?
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2004, 05:46 AM   #5
Hookbill the Goomba
Alive without breath
 
Hookbill the Goomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
We can only assume that Sauron was sent to the void after his downfall. Saruman too. but that has been discussed elsewhere.

As you say, If Sauron was sent to the void, he would first deal with Saurman's tertiary (This is all assuming that they were al sent together into the void) and then would he would have to worry about Melkor's judgement on him. So this whole topic is based on the assumption that Sauron could bring Melko back, so he would have to suffer the consequences that Melkor would throw at him (That’s if there is any thing to throw in the void). Although, If sauron had realised that Frodo was bout to destroy the ring and there was nothing he could do about it, he may have brought Melkor back as a last resort.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once.
THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...
Hookbill the Goomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2004, 01:30 AM   #6
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,244
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Two points:

1. Sauron believed himself to be actual reincarnation of Morgoth by the end.
2. As both him and Saruman were the maiar of Arda - i.e. under same restrictions as Valar (so bound to the world until its end), they were not thurst into the void (for it is special act, as is the case with Morgoth) after their death, but simply dissolved, and degenerated down to the ghost level
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2004, 06:04 PM   #7
ArathorofBarahir
Wight
 
ArathorofBarahir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Crickhallow
Posts: 247
ArathorofBarahir has just left Hobbiton.
OH absolutely! If Sauron had the power he would have released Melkor from the void without even thinking about it. Because once he did the two would have been invincible.
__________________
King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass.
Aragorn: You will suffer me.
ArathorofBarahir is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:23 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.