Nebulous "It" and Absolutes

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Be careful, davem, these are dark waters!

The argument of whether Eru = God has been debated for a long time,

I agree with you, davem, on many aspects,

I think that we can look at it this way;
Eru created the Ainor in Good intension, he listened to the first music and "It was good" Therefore his original plan for the earth was one of good, as shown in the first theme. But it was the discord of Melkor that is to blame for the eventuality of Evil in the world. Eru perhaps planed form the beginning to allow the Ainor to see their music, and gave them their free will to do with it what they would. Then there is the argument that He Knew that Melkor would arise in evil and change them music and yet still allowed it to happen. But then there is still the fact that he had the original plan of a perfect world as seen in the first theme. The fact that Frodo was left 'broken' at the end can be traced back to the discord of Melkor, without which, the world would be perfect still, there would still be the lamps, there would be no Melkor, no Sauron, no Ring, no lord of the rings, and no barrow downs discussion forums! (Dramatic music would be appropriate)

For arguments sake, lets assume Tolkien created Eru as a representation of God, How can we as mortals hope to understand the mind of a divine being? For we can say "God knows all that is and was and is to come yes? So he knew the devil would rebel and cause hurt to the world, so why would he create him?" Then if he left the world without evil there would be little hope for us as humans to have free will to chose between good and evil! Perhaps that is the same thing in the case of Eru in Tolkien’s world.

I think the point is, that Evil is essential to life. Without it we will not have free will to choose, and so Melkor, The devil and such are around to give us the choice of good or evil. As both in the Bible and in Tolkien's writing the evil is ultimately destroyed in battle, (aka, Armageddon and the Dagor Dargoth). SO we can see that Eru and God had the original intention of a perfect world, but knew that without evil, there would be no freedom for their children, but ultimately they will be rewarded for enduring evil after the final battle.

[Firefoot]

I don't think you can lay the blame on Ilúvatar.

[Ilúvatar] declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.
Then Ilúvatar said to them: "Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song."

The one option that doesn't seem to have been pointed out is that it could have been predetermined that Arda would be created. If this were so then the Music would have been the blueprints so to speak for Arda. Ilúvatar intended that this Music, the "blueprints" would be good. When the music started, and Ilúvatar declared his theme, it was good. All of the Ainur, even Melkor, were at this point good. Therefore, Ilúvatar completely intended for the music to be good. The music, was the beginning of the Creation. At this point, while it is unfolding prior to the dischord of Melkor, is when you have Arda Unmarred.

Then we come back to Frodo. I do not believe Frodo's suffering was Eru's will. It was because of the Dischord of Melkor, sin, that he had to suffer. It was Eru's mercy, his Divine Intervention, that he allowed the Ring to be destroyed - because of Frodo's willingness to sacrifice, and because of his mercy and pity to Gollum. Because of this, Eru allowed Frodo to have peace from the Ring, and grant that there may be healing beyond the confines of the world - whether in Valinor or even after. Tolkien doesn't specify what happens to Hobbits/Men after death, but maybe for Frodo there is healing. This would be Eru's mercy to him. It is wrong that Frodo had to suffer, but I do not think that Eru was to blame for this.

Our world is marred by our fall. Would it then be fair to say that Arda was marred by Melkor's fall? Arda unmarred was an option, and it could have been but for Melkor's dischord. We fell. We sinned. But when Christ came, he did not take sin from this world. Rather, he gave us salvation after death. Salvation and healing of all of our sins and hurts in this world. Perhaps this is how it works with Eru as well. Sin in Arda, but something better, perfect, afterwards. Frodo, I believe, found healing somewhere. When/how/where is not specified.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I must agree, Firefoot, Eru's Mercy is what saved Frodo from utter 'brokenness'. If Frodo had been driven completely mad by the ring, alike to Gollum, then the quest would not have been achieved. There again we can go into the idea of Devine intervention, as Gandalf says about Bilbo's finding of the ring;

"There were other powers at work that day, besides the will of evil"

Gandalf : The Fellowship of the ring - The shadow of the past

Then again it can be referring to the fact that Bilbo said, "What have I got in my pocket" at precisely the right time.
That suggests that Ilúvatar intervened in some way. So Then people begin to argue that this again removes the free will of Mortal races. But, as I have argued many times, the divine intervention is a guide, but men, elves and hobbit can use those guides wisely or unwisely depending on their choose.

Then again we can come around the fact that Iluvatar knew what was going to happen, he knew what they were going to chose to do, but I don’t think we can fully understand his mind.

As you said Firefoot, God sent his son to die for us to make up for the fall and the treachery of Satan so that his children may have salvation. (This is very appropriate being Easter, sorry i thought I’d point that out), So no, the blame does not belong to Eru / God, he obviously loves his children, and sent his son to die for us. and in the words of Gandalf "That is an encouraging thought".

Ps: This is my 51st post, so I’m now a haunting spirit! (Does ghost gestures and then sits down in embarrassment)