The source of Dragons

[galadriel'smaiden]

This may have been stated earlier in the thread, but if so I missed it.

Were the Ringwraiths' Fell Beasts related tp the dragons?
In my opinion they probably were, or were at least some sub-specie (I hope I spelled that right) of dragon.

[Gil-Galad]

too me fell beast weren't a sub-species of dragons, in the pictures i saw they looked almost like vultures, they were probaly one of many creatures morgoth made yet did not unveil them.

[Gurthang]

Okay, I've got a thought here, but it's still all theory. The Ringwraith's steads could be the missing link in our mystery. So here it is.

There would definately have been many unknown creatures across Arda(like down south where Ungoliant is from, for example). There could have been strange giant reptilian beings in the world. Morgoth took some of them and used his power to inhibit them with fell spirits and to change them physically. Slowly, dragons developed, with fire-breath and cool spell casting eyes. Later wings were added.

Then there are the Nazgul's rides. Sauron, being a good little minion, tried to copy his master's brilliance. Only he could not get that fire thing down, or find the necessary spirits to give them power. So he just threw the wreched critturs to his best followers to play with. And they used them well.

As I said, this is still theory, but its my best guess.


As far as breeding goes, well, I don't really care except it was nearly non-existant

[Gil-Galad]

i still think that Morgoth made a whole bunch of creatures, like experimented with them, yet they either failed, or escaped during the war of wrath, like the wacther and teh fell beasts, they were probaly cretures made by melkor, yet wasn't used too there full extent, suaron just took advantage of it

[PaleStar]

We don't know; it's never really made clear. I like to think Eru put different creatures out of the reach of his Elves, so that they would discover that they didn't know everything (which, I believe, is a problem with those Elves...), and, once they did, to trust Eru's plan, which the Valar did not...the summoning to Aman, anyone?
I sincerly doubt that Melkor could fashion his own creature, Valar though he was. I don't think he was that creative.
Or perhaps I'm wrong, and Melkor just looked at a snake and thought; hey, if I give that wings, and legs, fire-breath, and spellcasting eyes, it'll be my minion!
But this I doubt; the dragon sickness (guarding a wealth that has no use) convinces me that they were already there, and he just took advantage of them.

[Gil-Galad]

it says that Melkor made orcs! balrogs! dragons! alot of things! and your saying that he didn't make them

[Gurthang]

It doesn't specifically say he made them, but it doesn't really say he didn't. The twisting of the Elves was definitely not creation, and weren't the Balrogs fallen Maia or something. (I'm not sure on the latter, so ignore me if I'm wrong)

But I like to think that he couldn't create, because that would completely revoke any power Eru had over the Vala. He created them, and if they could create, then they would be as powerful as He. So I believe that he could not create something from nothing.

And besides, if he could have created these beings, why didn't he just make millions of them and wipe everything else off of the earth? Answer me that...

well guys you must forgive me as i'm new at this and i'm not as well versed as some of you, but according to J,E,A Tyler. Dragon kind was already in middle earth before the comming of Morgoth and he turned them to evil ways. so i'm led to believe that morgoth didn't make them. but they were baad anyway

[PaleStar]

Thanks for agreeing with me, Gurthang. That does makes sense. Why would Eru create something just as powerful as he if he needed to have some sort of dominion over them?
Besides, evil, as is said, cannot create. Only modify what is already there. So I stand by what I said; Dragons were already there, before Melkor ran to Middle Earth and found them.

[NightKnight]

I agree with PaleStar and Gurthang.

It is specifically said (Sil, I think) that Morgoth couldn't create life since his rebellion against Eru. (Yeah, Aulë created the dwarves, but they were given own life by Eru (something like "otherwise they would only be able to move when your thought was with them").)

Morgoth did take elves and twist them into orcs.

i'll give you a twisting of the elves, but raising an army takes time...not just like a snap of fingers

Who said he didn't have time? I think the first appearance of orcs were at the time of the first battle in the Beleriand Wars, which he won (didn't lose all his armies). He had had thousands of years to raise an army. After Dagor-nuin-Giliath (loss), he had 75 years until the next big battle, Dagor Aglareb, to breed a new army. And I think anyone would try to do anything with Morgoth's whip over your head.
Then it took almost 400 years until they came out in great numbers again. The Earth's population has grown with billions in that time. So I don't think that was a problem.

Balrogs were another thing. They were fallen maia, who served Morgoth more or less willingly, stuck in those big, fiery bodies. He might have created their bodies, but not their souls.

Now, the big problem. Where the heck did the Fell Beasts come from? I think that they were either Sauron's attempt of making dragons, like Gurthang said, or some failed creation of Morgoth, perhaps a first sketch of the winged dragons, maybe thrown out of Angband and taken over by Sauron. A third possibility is that they were already existant, maybe in the far south/east and found and bred by Sauron as a cool feature for the Nazgûl.