'high', purged of the gross: culture - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 06-19-2004, 12:09 PM

I think you started the translation nicely. Yes, that is the sort of thing I think Tolkien was driving at; but I think it goes higher and deeper than politeness (although courtesy is certainly a part of it.)

So what else is involved? In a sense that's what I'm asking, and I put this in this particular forum because I wanted the perspective of people who are newer to the legendarium than all those "grizzled old veterans" who hang out in the Books forum.

What do you see that Tolkien *did* get across with his mythology? How did he succeed? Did he change us in any way? Did he influence us? Did he make us think?

Are we missing anything? Do we see that some seem to have somehow absorbed Middle-Earth in a way that others haven't? How **DO** people absorb Middle-Earth and what effect does it have?

And once we get those answers, does it look like Tolkien succeeded in making his dream come true?

He jokingly said "my crest is long since fallen", but was he judging the effects too early?

Saraphim · 06-20-2004, 10:13 PM

I will attempt to explain my thoughts thoroughly, but if I confuse anyone, please inform me and I will happily attempt to elaborate.

Alright. For starters, the language (The Common Tongue, at any rate. Elvish is an entirely different, yet lovely story) Tolkien uses, a sort of retro-modern- Shakespeare type (and the confusion begins, sorry) is as great, vast, full, clear, fair, elusive, beautiful, steeped in poetry, majestic, and splendorous (er... Is that a word? Ah well, I'm using it) as anything ever written. It sets the tone for the story, a lingual backdrop that Tolkien obviously spent much time on.

It is this language that I see reflected most often, in fans and others. The crystaline flow of the words that seemed to flow so ceaslessly from Tolkien's pen inspires people. Me being one of many that I know.

When the characters speak, they don't simply tell what they are doing, they really TELL you what they are doing:

Quote:

" Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous, but only evil may fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

The esteemed ranger is speaking of Lothlorien, and I think the land is described perfectly in this one line.

Gorwingel · 06-23-2004, 12:59 AM

My interest in the books has changed the way that I act, think, and express myself in many ways (I am trying to expand this topic from my earlier post if you get my drift). I think that he was trying to tell us many things about our society in many ways. There are the more common things that are brought up in almost any discussion: The destruction of the environment, the fact that people should doing more, and be doing everything for their fellow man. But I think that we are trying to go deeper than that, deeper into the book and into the more subdued things that Tolkien may have been telling about our society. Now he was a professor, and one of the things that professors have to do is most likely correct papers, and since he was a teacher he most likely observed many habits that he disliked in the work of his students (because teachers just observe many things like that). So he could have been emphasizing things like modern society’s lack of fine language skills (by his use of very poetic language), and of manners and or violence in the media (by his use of not telling us every detail of a disturbing scene).

Now that I think of it, this could very much relate to his career in teaching, because one of the goals of almost every teacher is to change the lives of their students, so he could have, very possibly, been trying to change the lives of his readers by subconsciously sneaking in his own observances on habits in our culture, and telling us (subconsciously again) how to effect our culture by mildly changing the way we act (manners, language, etc.). Now this is getting very deep, and I don’t really know where this discussion will go, but I would love to see even more observances on this topic.

Mad Baggins · 06-24-2004, 06:39 PM

Yes, the language in the books is a lovely, pure thing. After reading them, I became accustomed to using different words and types of speech when I wrote reports or posted here on the Downs. I agree with Gorwingel's thoughts about the teacher aspect of things; professors teach their students how to use different language styles and techniques. In a way, Tolkien did the same thing because it seems that most readers have subconsciously changed their way of writing after they have finished reading the books.

mark12_30 · 06-25-2004, 06:38 AM

See this post for some Websters definitions that might prove helpful.

Guinevere · 06-27-2004, 02:04 PM

I think that Tolkien gives us a model of nobility to strive after, whereas much modern literature fairly relishes the gross! (At least that is my impression, after having read the books my son had to read for highschool...)

Quote:

"It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts"

says Strider to the hobbits about the tale of Tinuviel. I think it is just this effect Tolkien's works have on the reader: it lifts up the heart .
I have always preferred this kind of literature, but never found anything that satisfied me so completely until I came across Tolkien.

mark12_30 · 06-27-2004, 08:33 PM

Excellent point, Guinevere, and very well put.

"Fair, sad, and uplifting..." Yes, a good description of it all...

06-19-2004, 12:09 PM	#1
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	I think you started the translation nicely. Yes, that is the sort of thing I think Tolkien was driving at; but I think it goes higher and deeper than politeness (although courtesy is certainly a part of it.) So what else is involved? In a sense that's what I'm asking, and I put this in this particular forum because I wanted the perspective of people who are newer to the legendarium than all those "grizzled old veterans" who hang out in the Books forum. What do you see that Tolkien did get across with his mythology? How did he succeed? Did he change us in any way? Did he influence us? Did he make us think? Are we missing anything? Do we see that some seem to have somehow absorbed Middle-Earth in a way that others haven't? How DO people absorb Middle-Earth and what effect does it have? And once we get those answers, does it look like Tolkien succeeded in making his dream come true? He jokingly said "my crest is long since fallen", but was he judging the effects too early? __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

06-23-2004, 12:59 AM	#3
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	My interest in the books has changed the way that I act, think, and express myself in many ways (I am trying to expand this topic from my earlier post if you get my drift). I think that he was trying to tell us many things about our society in many ways. There are the more common things that are brought up in almost any discussion: The destruction of the environment, the fact that people should doing more, and be doing everything for their fellow man. But I think that we are trying to go deeper than that, deeper into the book and into the more subdued things that Tolkien may have been telling about our society. Now he was a professor, and one of the things that professors have to do is most likely correct papers, and since he was a teacher he most likely observed many habits that he disliked in the work of his students (because teachers just observe many things like that). So he could have been emphasizing things like modern society’s lack of fine language skills (by his use of very poetic language), and of manners and or violence in the media (by his use of not telling us every detail of a disturbing scene). Now that I think of it, this could very much relate to his career in teaching, because one of the goals of almost every teacher is to change the lives of their students, so he could have, very possibly, been trying to change the lives of his readers by subconsciously sneaking in his own observances on habits in our culture, and telling us (subconsciously again) how to effect our culture by mildly changing the way we act (manners, language, etc.). Now this is getting very deep, and I don’t really know where this discussion will go, but I would love to see even more observances on this topic. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

06-24-2004, 06:39 PM	#4
Mad Baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: A place where after thunder golden showers come falling like a rain of flowers. Posts: 371	Yes, the language in the books is a lovely, pure thing. After reading them, I became accustomed to using different words and types of speech when I wrote reports or posted here on the Downs. I agree with Gorwingel's thoughts about the teacher aspect of things; professors teach their students how to use different language styles and techniques. In a way, Tolkien did the same thing because it seems that most readers have subconsciously changed their way of writing after they have finished reading the books. __________________ I like buying snacks from a vending machine because food is better when it falls. Sometimes at the grocery, I'll drop a candy bar so that it will achieve its maximum flavor potential.

06-25-2004, 06:38 AM	#5
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	See this post for some Websters definitions that might prove helpful. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

06-27-2004, 08:33 PM	#7
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Excellent point, Guinevere, and very well put. "Fair, sad, and uplifting..." Yes, a good description of it all... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.