Ooh la la, Lúthien... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 09-14-2004, 12:49 PM

Since I have been directed here, I may as well shove in my ten pennorth....

I am fairly sure that there is a note in HoME to the Laws and Customs that raises the issue of Beren and Luthien and states that while it would have been legal for them to marry without the customary rituals other than the vow, it really was not "the done thing" and why go on the ludicrously dangerous quest if you are going to jump the gun anyway? So much simpler just to elope......

As for Tar-Palantir's comments - well Dain is right. While modern mores have moved so far that procreation is sidelined by recreation! It should be remembered sex drive is there to ensure our "selfish genes" are perpetuated.
And the shorter the life span, the more urgency there is to passing on your genes - I remember seeing a cartoon of two Mayflies - one says "What do you mean 'not tonight' - we only live one day!" Consequently it makes sense that elves would not have a high sex drive. Although most in the beginning, according to the laws and customs, did marry and presumably have children, by the time of LOTR - the elves were fading and the long years were taking their toll - also it was not Elvish practice to rear children in times of uncertainty so it would be less likely that there would be many elf children around at that time. It also says in the "laws" that crimes of lust were rare amongst elves - but obviously there are exceptions.

As for Maia - they are angelic spirits - and well has been discussed elsewhere Melian had to take an Elvish body in order to reproduce. Also with the "paired" Ainur - it is a spiritual rather than physical espousal. So I guess that Saruman and Gandalf, and indeed Sauron had no sex drive - I know that Morgoth lusted for Luthien but rape is more about power than sex and has nothing to do with love and I think it was similar to his desire for the Silmarils - the desire to possess something beautiful.

As for the hobbits - well it is pointed out that Frodo and Bilbo were very unusual in their bachelor status.

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-14-2004, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So I guess that Saruman and Gandalf, and indeed Sauron had no sex drive

But Saruman and Gandalf were both embodied in human form and therefore subject to human physical needs and frailties. They had to eat, sleep etc. And Sauron took physical form throughout much of his existence in Middle-earth. So, while matters of the flesh may well have been of little interest to them (particularly Gandalf), I would certainly not class them as having been incapable ...

Mithalwen · 09-15-2004, 10:43 AM

Well, in theory.... but in practice ... maybe there weren't many takers for a bunch of grumpy old men

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-15-2004, 11:14 AM

Yes, but what about Sauron's devilish charm?

Mithalwen · 09-15-2004, 11:34 AM

What about it? I can't help thinking that the lidless eye would be a bit of a turn off - even if they did love it when he was masterful

. Mind you some women still think they can change men (even if they don't have the receipt).

tar-ancalime · 09-15-2004, 12:59 PM

Ted Hughes as Sauron?

I wonder if we could populate Middle-Earth with poets....e.e. cummings is a shoo-in for Tom-Bom, jolly Tom!

Mithalwen · 09-15-2004, 01:10 PM

Oh but I love e.e.'s poetry and loath TB's..... Tom and Viv would be interesting casting ... I say Sam is Pam Ayres.

09-14-2004, 12:49 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Since I have been directed here, I may as well shove in my ten pennorth.... I am fairly sure that there is a note in HoME to the Laws and Customs that raises the issue of Beren and Luthien and states that while it would have been legal for them to marry without the customary rituals other than the vow, it really was not "the done thing" and why go on the ludicrously dangerous quest if you are going to jump the gun anyway? So much simpler just to elope...... As for Tar-Palantir's comments - well Dain is right. While modern mores have moved so far that procreation is sidelined by recreation! It should be remembered sex drive is there to ensure our "selfish genes" are perpetuated. And the shorter the life span, the more urgency there is to passing on your genes - I remember seeing a cartoon of two Mayflies - one says "What do you mean 'not tonight' - we only live one day!" Consequently it makes sense that elves would not have a high sex drive. Although most in the beginning, according to the laws and customs, did marry and presumably have children, by the time of LOTR - the elves were fading and the long years were taking their toll - also it was not Elvish practice to rear children in times of uncertainty so it would be less likely that there would be many elf children around at that time. It also says in the "laws" that crimes of lust were rare amongst elves - but obviously there are exceptions. As for Maia - they are angelic spirits - and well has been discussed elsewhere Melian had to take an Elvish body in order to reproduce. Also with the "paired" Ainur - it is a spiritual rather than physical espousal. So I guess that Saruman and Gandalf, and indeed Sauron had no sex drive - I know that Morgoth lusted for Luthien but rape is more about power than sex and has nothing to do with love and I think it was similar to his desire for the Silmarils - the desire to possess something beautiful. As for the hobbits - well it is pointed out that Frodo and Bilbo were very unusual in their bachelor status. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-15-2004, 10:43 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Well, in theory.... but in practice ... maybe there weren't many takers for a bunch of grumpy old men __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-15-2004, 11:14 AM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Roguish appeal? Yes, but what about Sauron's devilish charm? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

09-15-2004, 11:34 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Oh the Sylvia Plath theory... What about it? I can't help thinking that the lidless eye would be a bit of a turn off - even if they did love it when he was masterful . Mind you some women still think they can change men (even if they don't have the receipt). __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-15-2004, 12:59 PM	#6
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	Ted Hughes as Sauron? I wonder if we could populate Middle-Earth with poets....e.e. cummings is a shoo-in for Tom-Bom, jolly Tom! __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13)

09-15-2004, 01:10 PM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Oh but I love e.e.'s poetry and loath TB's..... Tom and Viv would be interesting casting ... I say Sam is Pam Ayres. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace