Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta

[Neithan]

but you might argue that because Thingol was slained the link that she had with him now that it was gone allowed her to do that.

I'm confused. Are you saying that her link with Thingol is what bound her to her body, or are you saying that it is what allowed her to leave it. If the former, then I disagree. If Melian was bound to her body, then it was because of how she used her body not because of her link to Thingol. If you were saying the latter then I would say that it is a possability, but it is my opinion that when Thingol died her link to Middle Earth was severed and her link to her body went with it. Also there seem to be degrees of incarnation, Melian may have been incarnate to some extent, but certainly not as much as Sauron was.

To me this means that he spent a part of his "ëalar" power not only in his ring but perhaps in the other ones except the 3.
I wonder if perhaps this is the reason as to why Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron's intentions?

Sauron may well have had more to do with some of the Rings than teaching, but this quote could just be referring to the power Sauron used to bind the Rings together.
Unless I am mistaken the quote from the Sil posted earlier implied that it was not just Celebrimbor who was aware of him but all of the Elves that wore rings. I think that Sauron didn't realize that the link between the Rings would go both ways (although the One Ring was dominant) and so did not realize that the Elves would percieve him when he put on the Ring.

About Sauron reclothing himself, remember that he was not incarnate until after the destruction of Numenore. The Ealar's power was lessened after their bodies were destroyed even if they are not incarnate, but far more so if they are. The first time Sauron's body was destroyed he was hurt only a little. The second time was much worse, just like Morgoth he had done horrible evil and he had dispersed much of his power (the Ring). Also there was the weakening of his power due to his body being destroyed. This resulted in his becoming incarnate. So when the Last Alliance came there was a different story, this time he was incarnate and so became nothing more than an impotent (or nearly so) spirit (there is no record, that I can recall, of any Maia, other than Sauron, who came back after being "killed" in incarnate form, save maybe Gandalf, but he seems to have been a special case also). However, the Ring is what saved him, it "anchored" him so that, slowly, he was able to rebuild a body. Just as his Ring was his savior so it became his bane, for when it was destroyed his anchor was lost and so was he.

[drigel]

Maedros thats funny - you need to give me your tips. I need a secret compartment under my desk a 'la George Castansa

My mistake - I did mean Luthien.

Reading the Ósanwe-kenta helps me to rectify the whole Huan issue in my mind. That now makes sense to me. Thinking about that now - spiders eagles et al as well.

[Maédhros]

I'm confused. Are you saying that her link with Thingol is what bound her to her body, or are you saying that it is what allowed her to leave it. If the former, then I disagree. If Melian was bound to her body, then it was because of how she used her body not because of her link to Thingol. If you were saying the latter then I would say that it is a possability, but it is my opinion that when Thingol died her link to Middle Earth was severed and her link to her body went with it. Also there seem to be degrees of incarnation, Melian may have been incarnate to some extent, but certainly not as much as Sauron was.

What I'm saying is that there indeed was a link with Thingol that made her incarnate herself and be with him in ME. I'm very familiar with Melian after Thingol died because that is something that we are currently working in the Project. It is my opinion that when Thingol was slained, Melian went to Ossiriand first to warn Beren and Lúthien about what had happened in Menegroth unlike what it is told in the story in the Published Silmarillion.
I have to strongly disagree with the level of incarnation of Melian and Sauron. Melian is definitely more strongly dependent on her hröa than Sauron. Why? Because she even had a child in that union.
From Ósanwe-kenta

"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.

About Sauron reclothing himself, remember that he was not incarnate until after the destruction of Numenore. The Ealar's power was lessened after their bodies were destroyed even if they are not incarnate, but far more so if they are. The first time Sauron's body was destroyed he was hurt only a little. The second time was much worse, just like Morgoth he had done horrible evil and he had dispersed much of his power (the Ring). Also there was the weakening of his power due to his body being destroyed. This resulted in his becoming incarnate. So when the Last Alliance came there was a different story, this time he was incarnate and so became nothing more than an impotent (or nearly so) spirit (there is no record, that I can recall, of any Maia, other than Sauron, who came back after being "killed" in incarnate form, save maybe Gandalf, but he seems to have been a special case also). However, the Ring is what saved him, it "anchored" him so that, slowly, he was able to rebuild a body. Just as his Ring was his savior so it became his bane, for when it was destroyed his anchor was lost and so was he.

Are you implying that Sauron was a mere spirit and not incarnate during his time in Númenórë? That of course is just wrong.
From Akallabêth The Downfall of Númenor

For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Númenóreans and the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home.

He was definitely incarnate in Númenórë.
From The Tale of Years

Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; 3262-3310 Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans.
3319 Ar-Pharazôn assails Valinor. Downfall of Númenor. Elendil and his sons escape.

So we have that Sauron spent aprox. 3319-3262 (57) years in Númenórë as an incarnate.
Can you imagine Sauron not being incarnate while in Númenórë. They would have freaked out at talking to a spirit I think.
A bigger point is this. How can anyone know that Sauron wasn't incarnate the whole time that he was in ME? If Melkor his master decided to be one, it would be logical that he his lieutenant would follow his master too.

[drigel]

Wasnt the authors point that Morgoth, being a greater Vala, was able to do both - albeit lessening his physical stucture/strength as time went on? IMO Saurons only way to do this was in ring craftsmenship.

[Lalwendë]

I’m pleased to see so much discussion here, I wasn’t sure it would be a topic with great ‘appeal’, but obviously there are a fair few who have been lucky enough to have read Osanwe-kenta. And also the quotes from HoME have been useful to add another perspective.

Originally Posted by Maedhros

How could Sauron control minds of Elves that not even Morgoth could? How could Sauron control the minds of others if that is an impossibility? Only Eru can open a closed mind?

I think that the answer to this question might lie in the deception Sauron carried out during the creation of the Rings. As one part of sanwe is unwill, i.e. the ability to close the mind to perception from outside, then he would have needed to carry out some deception in order to prevent those barriers being put up; he would have needed to get the Elves’ trust. Although, there is another possibility in the following line from The Sil:

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency

Perhaps Sauron needed to put an immense amount of power into the creation of the One Ring in order to overcome the power of the Elven rings; an amount of power sufficient to make it so that the destruction of the One Ring would be his own downfall? Looking at the Osanwe-kenta, it may also be possible that Sauron had more inherent power of sanwe than did the Elves. This may be dependent upon whether and how much he is perceived as an ‘Incarnate’.

Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.

As to when and how the Elves perceived that Sauron was intending to have control over their minds, I think the following explains that they became aware once he wore the One Ring, and that they removed their own rings as soon as they became aware. This would mean that there was somewhat of a time gap where Sauron would ‘see’ their own rings, thus explaining the need to conceal them and not use them.

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

Finally, I have another interesting thought to add about the nature of the One Ring on mortal ringbearers. Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each? What intrigues me is how Sauron was able to ‘see’ into their minds. Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

* sorry about the seemingly ‘wrong’ words, but I can’t find the umlauts on this version of Word.

[Neithan]

What I'm saying is that there indeed was a link with Thingol that made her incarnate herself and be with him in ME.

Oh, I apologize for misrepresenting your position.

I have to strongly disagree with the level of incarnation of Melian and Sauron. Melian is definitely more strongly dependent on her hröa than Sauron. Why? Because she even had a child in that union.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

Are you implying that Sauron was a mere spirit and not incarnate during his time in Númenórë?

No indeed, that would be a rediculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

[drigel]

Nethian/Maedros
I am following you both
Melian giving birth never dawned on me as having an effect on her hroa. Of course that would bind her. Dunno if its equivelent to S's ring. Interesting!

Perhaps Sauron needed to put an immense amount of power into the creation of the One Ring in order to overcome the power of the Elven rings; an amount of power sufficient to make it so that the destruction of the One Ring would be his own downfall?

Lalwende -I concur - (in previous post) I referenced this ealier. For Sauron to have something (elves) he despises so much and intended to control - to be ultimately his undoing by matching, or surpassing, the potency of the wielders.... sweet irony

Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

It seems to me congruous that the palantiri utilized the attributes that are presented in Ósanwe-kenta

Lalwende: your threads are great! keep it up

[Neithan]

Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each?

I have actually not read Osanwe-Kenta so my insight concerning this thread is limited, however I think I can add something here. There is also the possibility that their unusally long life had something to do with their body being harmed. But more importantly I think that it was the connection beween body and spirit that did it. Therefore as their minds were corrupted so were their bodies. This explains several things. There is the quote from Gandalf saying that Bilbo's pity helped him resist fading, just after that Gandalf says that the Ring will be "slow to evil" if Frodo keeps it with the intention of keeping it hidden. Also here is a quote about the Ringwraiths from the Sil,

And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning they fell ...

So you see their intentions have much to do with how long it takes, but eventually their minds (and spirits) are corrupted, and their bodies along with them.

[Maédhros]

I think that the answer to this question might lie in the deception Sauron carried out during the creation of the Rings. As one part of sanwe is unwill, i.e. the ability to close the mind to perception from outside, then he would have needed to carry out some deception in order to prevent those barriers being put up; he would have needed to get the Elves’ trust.

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

Finally, I have another interesting thought to add about the nature of the One Ring on mortal ringbearers. Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each? What intrigues me is how Sauron was able to ‘see’ into their minds. Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

I would say that the inverse is correct. While Bilbo and Frodo had the Ring, their body endured more that it's natural span, notice that Bilbo looked very similiar from his adventures in The Hobbit and he was about 111 years old.
I have explained this in another thread. The Ring puts the hröa and fëar against each other. While a mortal fëar after sometime would want to leave the world and it's hröa in time would decay, the ring makes the hröa endure more that it is meant to do, this puts great anguish against the being who has the Ring.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men.* What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.

No indeed, that would be a ridiculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

Maybe the Ring should be looked at from another angle. Perhaps to a certain extent, when Sauron created the One Ring, he not only infused a great deal of his power into it, but also his connection to a "physical form"?

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

Also, another thought to do with that: the hröa is not just the physical body, but also, in a sort of complicated way that I can't readily find a quote to, includes the 'mind' and thoughts of the person. So, if the Ring is a part of Sauron's hröa, then it would follow that it has a part in his thoughts and mind, hence the "personification" of the Ring, its seeming consciousness and malevolent will.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into an aberrant thought on my part, but it seems almost plausible...