Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta

[Neithan]

Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each?

I have actually not read Osanwe-Kenta so my insight concerning this thread is limited, however I think I can add something here. There is also the possibility that their unusally long life had something to do with their body being harmed. But more importantly I think that it was the connection beween body and spirit that did it. Therefore as their minds were corrupted so were their bodies. This explains several things. There is the quote from Gandalf saying that Bilbo's pity helped him resist fading, just after that Gandalf says that the Ring will be "slow to evil" if Frodo keeps it with the intention of keeping it hidden. Also here is a quote about the Ringwraiths from the Sil,

And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning they fell ...

So you see their intentions have much to do with how long it takes, but eventually their minds (and spirits) are corrupted, and their bodies along with them.

[Maédhros]

I think that the answer to this question might lie in the deception Sauron carried out during the creation of the Rings. As one part of sanwe is unwill, i.e. the ability to close the mind to perception from outside, then he would have needed to carry out some deception in order to prevent those barriers being put up; he would have needed to get the Elves’ trust.

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

Finally, I have another interesting thought to add about the nature of the One Ring on mortal ringbearers. Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each? What intrigues me is how Sauron was able to ‘see’ into their minds. Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

I would say that the inverse is correct. While Bilbo and Frodo had the Ring, their body endured more that it's natural span, notice that Bilbo looked very similiar from his adventures in The Hobbit and he was about 111 years old.
I have explained this in another thread. The Ring puts the hröa and fëar against each other. While a mortal fëar after sometime would want to leave the world and it's hröa in time would decay, the ring makes the hröa endure more that it is meant to do, this puts great anguish against the being who has the Ring.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men.* What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.

No indeed, that would be a ridiculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

Maybe the Ring should be looked at from another angle. Perhaps to a certain extent, when Sauron created the One Ring, he not only infused a great deal of his power into it, but also his connection to a "physical form"?

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

Also, another thought to do with that: the hröa is not just the physical body, but also, in a sort of complicated way that I can't readily find a quote to, includes the 'mind' and thoughts of the person. So, if the Ring is a part of Sauron's hröa, then it would follow that it has a part in his thoughts and mind, hence the "personification" of the Ring, its seeming consciousness and malevolent will.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into an aberrant thought on my part, but it seems almost plausible...

[Maédhros]

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

I have to disagree with this. If what you say is true, then Sauron would always survive if his Ring did, but that is not the case.
From the Letters of JRRT: 246

Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

[Neithan]

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

I had a similar thought. I think that in order to use the Rings they had to "open their minds to them" that is, they had to use this "mind power" to use the Rings and so the Rings became tied to that power. And so through the One Ring Sauron could get around their "unwill".
This raises the question, shouldn't Gandalf and others be able to shut their minds to the temptation of the One Ring?

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

57 years is nothing to a Maia, it probably wouldn't make that much difference. If he was able to change the form of his hröa, then he couldn't have had that strong of a bond to it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Neithan

I think that in order to use the Rings they had to "open their minds to them" that is, they had to use this "mind power" to use the Rings and so the Rings became tied to that power. And so through the One Ring Sauron could get around their "unwill".

This I think is part of the whole essence of why the Rings were created. To the Elves, they must have held some kind of power, or else why would they have been created? They were clearly not symbolic but had a purpose. Repeating the quote I used in my original post:

they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

Tolkien does not directly say what their use was, but this quote hints at it strongly, and hints at the possibility that they were used for purposes of sanwe. How? Because they then had to be hidden from Sauron, and how would he 'know' they were being used if he was at a distance unless they did possess some power?

Another hint at the 'purpose' is here:

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

In Unfinished Tales, there is the following interesting information in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn:

"What would you have then?" said Celebrimbor

"I would have trees and grass about me that do not die - here in the land that is mine," she answered. "What has become of the skill of the Eldar?" And Celebrimbor said "Where now is the stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone."
"They have passed over sea," said Galadriel, "With almost all fair things else. But must then Middle Earth fade and perish for ever?"

"That is its fate I deem," said Celebrimbor. "But you know that I love you (though you turn to Celeborn of the trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if happily by my art your grief can be lessened."

Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the shadow to the forest. But afterwards when Nenya, her chief of the three was sent her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.

The Elessar was created before the Rings, and it must have held some kind of similar power if she gives it up once she receives Nenya. It also seems to be 'immune' to the power of the One Ring. Does it make use of some kind of sanwe in the creation of Lothlorien? Another question here is whether Celebrimbor creates these things for love of Galadriel, and if he is so easily misled by Sauron because he is working for love of Galadriel and cannot see how he has been deceived? And if the Elessar has a similar power, what does this say about Aragorn's discovery of the White Tree?

[HerenIstarion]

Question of Unwill (how can it be overcome) I have thought about before, but came not to a definitive conclusion. I have a theory, though, which runs as follows:

Maybe, Unwill is not overcome in a strict sense - the breach is allowed for by the person him/herself. Cf:

S77

Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'
And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.
Than Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'
Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know.

I.e. - would Gorlim stand fast, Sauron would not be able to enter his mind, but he let him in, once in, he suspended Gorlim's will to force it all out. The process may be similar with the rings - if the person fails even once, he lets the power into his mind he is not able to get rid of later

And following another piece (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth), it should be concluded that following the Fall, no man is able not to fail.

But the opening key may be deceit - the mind is not forced, but tricked (or, more appropriate here - seduced) to open up a breach.

Besides, having in mind that all matter (of which hröar are built) contains taint of Melkor, and hröar are affecting fëar, it is to be assumed no living being (elves and men alike) has a perfect mind, able not to allow for a breach. Hence, even Gandalf (in incarnate form) fears to take the Ring)

***

As for the Gift of Death and its withdrawal (commenting on human servants who keep leaving not useful), brief comment, dependent on the treatment former King of Angmar threatens Éowyn with:

Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye

It is stated Gift of Eru can not be withdrawn, but we have Nazgûl living on and on. And here, it seems, the explanation is provided for why that should be so. It is another trickery, cheating. Deceit in another form - it seems Sauron learned how to turn flesh into what they call Undead in PC games I may an addict of, not letting the body die, but transforming it, so keeping the sould tied up to it. The Gift of Eru is not, technically, withdrawn - just the object has not died yet. Its a bit like of what effect may be of freezing one's body for infinite time in a fridge (I've heard some rich people practice the process - with the hope of being returned to life in some better future), but retaining operational functions (i.e. ability to move and be conscious) at the same time. The death is postponed, not cancelled.