Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Mister Underhill]

Hey Sono! Nice to see you back posting. Both you and mark12_30 demonstrate your keen intelligence (not to mention good taste) once again.

My own exhaustive (some might say exhausting) research on this topic has convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt that Tolkien conceived of Balrogs as winged creatures, at least at the time of the writing of LotR. There is compelling evidence of First Age wingers, too, but I won't rehash arguments I've made of old in the linked threads here.

I will, however, note that the Silm "troll-guard" reference is suspect to say the least. See this section of my Olog-hai article for a comprehensive investigation -- or just let me sum it up for you: this section of the published Silm was constructed from various source texts by Christopher. Not one of Tolkien's source texts as published or described in HoME refers to trolls, so how they got into Christopher's Frankenstein version is anybody's guess. This instance is also the sole mention of trolls in the entire published Silm as far as I know.

So troll-guard references in relation to the Balrog debate are simply not compelling.

[Esgallhugwen]

Ok here's my pathetic attempt at giving my humble opinion after humming and hawing over my fellow BDer's posts.

In my opinion they did have wings.

Now to incorporate some proof to my flimsy theory, I agree that evolution would be out, though at first my proof and opinion was going to be that, [I]well Ostriches and Emus are huge birds but their weight and over all proportions prevent them from flying to any extentso yes the Balrogs could have had wings, but aside from evolution the weight theory can still be put into effect for obvious reasons, they were freakin' huge!

Now for them being able to have changed forms, Morgoth's Maia, very much like himself, would have lost their ability or capability to perform certain tasks, after all due to Morgoth's downfall he was only able to pervert and contort and not make things of his own. Perhaps it could be the same for his followers, maybe after a period of time they were unable to change to anything else and unable to use their wings in flight due to them no longer being of the Light, or perhaps the wings could potentially be in a stunted form from their inability to have changed further due to their degradation, thus not allowing them flight.

So I believe the Balrogs had wings but were unable to fly.
I think thats all I have to say for now untill I think of something better.

[HerenIstarion]

Ah, for the fifth year we disagree on this subject

On balrog origins, see here (One Hand tied behind their backs by Mithadan, post #32)

I consciously avoided wings issue in the article linked to.

But I still hold they did not have wings

Arguments (not touching on traditional 'like wings' quote from LoTR, for it may be used as pro and contra argument likewise.

Balrogs may have had wings originally (that is, as Tolkien envisioned them, as 'fallen angels'. Allegedly, angels having wings and balorgs too. Excuse me drawing in this inappropriate imagery, but have you played Heroes of Might and Magic IV? I suppose you must have, Mr.U? Remember 'angels' and 'demons' of that game? Former have feather wings and the latter leather wings - but that is part of the whole Western mythic imagery - as bats (leather wings) are associated with vampires (Evil) and dove (feather wings) with Holy Spirit, basilisk (leather wings) is scared away by cockerel (feather wings) etc.

But winged angels (besides two first orders, cherubs and seraphs, who have four and six ccorrespondingly), appearence is not confirmed by any sacred text. It's just a popular belief, kind of an 'urban legend' for first Christians (see link to mark 12_30's post below). So I hold that as Tolkien 'conscioulsy' revised his work, he changed his mind (as it may be misleading to imagine things which are spiritual, and may actually have no physical 'look' at all)

What am I driving at? As was discussed in many good threads around the Downs (Ëalar and Incarnation by obloquy for one, it is in Haudh-en-Ndengin, Do Ainur have wings by Estelyn for two, mark (pun intended) mark 12_30's post there). Ainur, in general, do not need physical bodies for travel, unless they are tied to their bodies (Deliberately for Istari, habitually for balrogs - practicing incarnate activities making the bondage unbreakable - see excerpts from Osanwe-Kenta on the subject here - The Ainur and their physical forms by Neithan)

But once they 'grow' incarnate, their physical forms are:

1. What they chose in the beginning and grew accustomed to
2. Reflection of their inward status - hence Sauron being only 'terrible' after some point

And another very grave but - BUT in both cases, biological functionality plays the major part - i.e. spirits who fly take form of eagles - i.e. physical apparatus designed for flight. Humanoid form, however, is an apparatus specifically designed for upright walking. Wings on it look as out of place as they would on a seal or a snail. Biological inconsistency, so to say. (Or John Travolta with a bottle of whiskey by the fridge)

And there is also age old argument of mine about two duels with balrogs. (Gandalf and Glorfindel). In both cases balrogs do fall down the abyss. Why should they fall, if the are winged and able of flight? In Gandalf's case it may be argued that the abyss below the bridge is too narrow for such a huge flier to spread its wings, but in Glorfindel's case the abyss is quite wide - enormous Thorondor flies down and up it to recover Glorfindel's body after the battle is over.

[narfforc]

Many years ago, whist I was still a young pup, I asked this question to a grey beard during Oxonmoot (Tolkien Society). His answer was What does the good book say. Here is what it says exactly, His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings. It does not say, its two vast wings reached out. A few sentences later are the words that have made this one of the most asked questions over the years, it drew itself up to a great height, AND ITS WINGS were spread from wall to wall. What Tolkien is talking about here are the Balrogs SHADOW wings. So the answer to this question is yes and no, the wings were there for show, like a politicians smile.

NOMOREIHERE

[davem]

I suppose its possible that the 'wings' were a deliberate illusion created by the Balrog to intimidate the Fellowship: 'His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.' Which implies that the Balrog, being a creature of 'shadow & flame' had control over its 'appearance'.

The 'wings' would not be real, but would seem so. It could not use them to fly only to intimidate. I get the sense of them being intended to give a sense of there being no escape - they 'were spread from wall to wall' - increasing the impression of size & power. In that sense they weren't 'wings' at all - they weren't a means to fly - perhaps Tolkien is using the word 'wings' in the sense of a house having 'wings'. The Balrog was making itself 'bigger' - like a cat raising its hackles...

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by davem

The Balrog was making itself 'bigger' - like a cat raising its hackles...

That, Sir, is worthy of the title Quote of the Day!

Which I have a pleasure of opening up a thread for:

Quote of the Day