Do Balrogs Have Wings? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

obloquy · 01-10-2005, 04:47 PM

What did the Fellowship really know about Balrogs, anyway? We know that, at the very least, the shadows looked like wings. That's all the Fellowship ever saw of Balrogs, so, whether Balrogs could fly or not, or had wings or not, the Fellowship only knew what they saw, which was a dark shape with wings (of shadow or otherwise). They may have seen it, but none of them knew anything about what they saw.

Maybe when Frodo said it was not a Balrog it was because he happened to know, where Gimli did not, that Balrogs cannot fly, since Frodo had spent his time in Rivendell educating himself.

Hookbill the Goomba · 01-11-2005, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Hookbill: Melkor did not create Balrogs.

Oh, did I say "Create"? Sorry, I kind of meant 'invented' if you take my meaning. No, he did not create them. But he did take those Maiar spirits and entrap them in those bodies as he did with many of his... inventions?... Like that of Carcharoth, a spirit trapped in the body of a wolf that was made huge by Melko.

That’s just my thinking.

Lyta_Underhill: is that an African or ... Oh... Never mind. (Python ROCKS!)

obloquy · 01-11-2005, 10:22 AM

"Invention" doesn't fit either. Melkor and the Balrogs were Ainur, beings of the same order, and although Melkor was mightier, Balrogs existed independent of him. He corrupted them, and maybe played a part in their incarnation, but credit for the "invention" of all Maiar goes exclusively to Eru.

I don't recall any mention of Melkor "trapping spirits" inside bodies, but I am pretty rusty. Could you provide some text to that effect?

Hookbill the Goomba · 01-11-2005, 10:29 AM

Obloquy, You and your technicalities! What I mean was the guise of the Balrogs was invented by Melko... can we drop that now? Thank you.

(Roots through silm) Well, I couldn't find it, but I did prove myself wrong, as my Carcharoth statement was wrong... i just seem to remember Melko trapping things in bodies. I suppose one could look at Glaurung, as it says "The evil spirit that dwelt within him" spoke, that would seem to suggest, to me anyway, that Melko trapped things in other bodies. I may of course be completely miss reading.

I am sorry about that misunderstanding Obloquy.

Neithan · 01-11-2005, 11:08 AM

From the Sil,

Quote:

and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.

obloquy · 01-11-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Obloquy, You and your technicalities! What I mean was the guise of the Balrogs was invented by Melko... can we drop that now? Thank you.

Maybe it was his design, but we can't say for sure.

Quote:

Well, I couldn't find it, but I did prove myself wrong, as my Carcharoth statement was wrong... i just seem to remember Melko trapping things in bodies.

You weren't far off. Thanks to Neithan's research, we have indication that Melkor did trap spirits in bodies.

Quote:

I am sorry about that misunderstanding Obloquy.

Hey, it's nothing! I don't want you to feel like I jumped on you, I just like to keep things accurate in case someone who doesn't know any better is following along.

Edit: The quote is good enough for me here since it is sort of off-topic, but if that was a key point in the discussion, I would ask for you to find the original reference in HoMe. The '77 Sil can sometimes be misleading; see Underhill's article on Gothmog's troll-guard for a case in point.

***Mister Underhill*** · 01-11-2005, 11:33 AM

If memory serves, Balrogs were "made" by Morgoth in early versions; not made, but merely "multiplied" by him later on; and in still later versions (which I think are the foundation for the 77 Silm), the Balrogs are Maiar (or Umaiar) who followed him into corruption. See HoME X to trace this evolution.

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01-11-2005, 10:29 AM	#4
Hookbill the Goomba Alive without breath Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla Posts: 5,912	Obloquy, You and your technicalities! What I mean was the guise of the Balrogs was invented by Melko... can we drop that now? Thank you. (Roots through silm) Well, I couldn't find it, but I did prove myself wrong, as my Carcharoth statement was wrong... i just seem to remember Melko trapping things in bodies. I suppose one could look at Glaurung, as it says "The evil spirit that dwelt within him" spoke, that would seem to suggest, to me anyway, that Melko trapped things in other bodies. I may of course be completely miss reading. I am sorry about that misunderstanding Obloquy. __________________ I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...

01-10-2005, 04:47 PM	#1
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	What did the Fellowship really know about Balrogs, anyway? We know that, at the very least, the shadows looked like wings. That's all the Fellowship ever saw of Balrogs, so, whether Balrogs could fly or not, or had wings or not, the Fellowship only knew what they saw, which was a dark shape with wings (of shadow or otherwise). They may have seen it, but none of them knew anything about what they saw. Maybe when Frodo said it was not a Balrog it was because he happened to know, where Gimli did not, that Balrogs cannot fly, since Frodo had spent his time in Rivendell educating himself.

01-11-2005, 10:22 AM	#3
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	"Invention" doesn't fit either. Melkor and the Balrogs were Ainur, beings of the same order, and although Melkor was mightier, Balrogs existed independent of him. He corrupted them, and maybe played a part in their incarnation, but credit for the "invention" of all Maiar goes exclusively to Eru. I don't recall any mention of Melkor "trapping spirits" inside bodies, but I am pretty rusty. Could you provide some text to that effect?

01-11-2005, 11:33 AM	#7
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	If memory serves, Balrogs were "made" by Morgoth in early versions; not made, but merely "multiplied" by him later on; and in still later versions (which I think are the foundation for the 77 Silm), the Balrogs are Maiar (or Umaiar) who followed him into corruption. See HoME X to trace this evolution.