Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

Just to let you know, I've added a post to the Book section, Gandalf's staff, to put forward my point that the WK breaking Gandalf's staff can be seen as not that big a problem for the Wizard. Again, for the umpteenth time, I'm not condoning PJ doing this to the scene, I'm just stating that a Wizard's staff isn't the be all and end all of his powers. Take a look at the Gandalf's Staff thread if you're interested in my views at all...................

[Guinevere]

... and for the umpteenth time, it is not only the breaking of the staff that seems "wrong" but the general helpless and hopeless, too human behaviour of Gandalf that bothers me. What about : "But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something." It doesn't count so much, apparently...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

... and for the umpteenth time, it is not only the breaking of the staff that seems "wrong" but the general helpless and hopeless, too human behaviour of Gandalf that bothers me. What about : "But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something." It doesn't count so much, apparently...

Guinevere, thanks for bringing the thread back to the real issue.

Just think - what if the Witch-King took the extra two seconds needed to slay the helplessly prone Gandalf before the Rohirrim blew their horns (It's well known that Nazgul, like Pavlov's dogs, just *have* to go and see what's up when they hear horns blowing...)? We'd have BBQed Faramir, meaning that PJ could cut the Houses of Healing scene entirely (Eowyn who?), making room for yet another cameo and/or more Legolas-Gimli slapstick. Aragorn doesn't need the White Wizard in the 'Last Debate' nor at the Black Gate. And just what does Gandalf accomplish in the scene with the Mouth of Sauron? Wouldn't that scene have been better if the MoS came out, talked threateningly awhile, and, in Indiana Jones fashion, Aragorn just takes him out? Then Gimli could say something funny...

Gandalf doesn't do much afterwards anyway in ROTK except for helping Aragorn put his crown on correctly ("Do the feathery-looking things go in the front or the back?") and helping Frodo board the Last Ship ("Hi, I'm Gandalf, your ship's Steward...").

I'm surprised PJ kept him around as long as he did.

[Essex]

Gandalf was not powerless. he was afraid, yes, and on the floor. He was a Wizard with powers without his staff. I know that as a reader of the books.

But I ask again, WHY DID TOLKIEN WRITE THE SCENE THE WAY HE DID? BECAUSE THE ROHIRRIM SAVE THE DAY AND SAVE GANDALF FROM A CONFLICT THAT HE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON.

Gandalf was on the floor, yes. But do you think this scene would have worked dramatically in a film if the two of them stood there and no action happened between them, and then the WK just leaves? Film goers would have been asking the quesiton, what on earth was that all for? Why did they have that scene? They're about to fight and then the WK leaves. What was the point of it? PJ had to add some dramatic tension into the film with Gandalf in a prone position to have a REASON for the scene. The Rohirrim saved Gandalf. Along with this, they also aided Gandalf in saving the life of Faramir as he was able to go to his aid instead of battling the WK.

As for his staff breaking (which is the main starting point for people's anger on this thread, Alatar), I've explained my reasoning behind it not being that great a deal in the Gandalf's staff thread in the books section.

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was on the floor, yes. But do you think this scene would have worked dramatically in a film if the two of them stood there and no action happened between them, and then the WK just leaves?

Almost every Western I've ever seen suggests a scene like this would work. The WK and Gandalf staring each other down is pretty much equivalent to the scene in every Western were the two gunfighters stare each other down across the main road and the tumbleweed rolls between them.

The scene PJ cut out where the WK reveals himself is equivalent to the part in the gunfight where the gunfighters pull back their coats and show what guns they are packing.

The dramatic tension in such scenes is incredible. The viewer is left wondering when the guns will be drawn and who will be left standing.

In this case, however, the tension is cut when the horns sound and the WK leaves the duel without a gun being fired (or a spell being flung).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was on the floor, yes. But do you think this scene would have worked dramatically in a film if the two of them stood there and no action happened between them, and then the WK just leaves? Film goers would have been asking the quesiton, what on earth was that all for? Why did they have that scene? They're about to fight and then the WK leaves. What was the point of it? PJ had to add some dramatic tension into the film with Gandalf in a prone position to have a REASON for the scene. The Rohirrim saved Gandalf. Along with this, they also aided Gandalf in saving the life of Faramir as he was able to go to his aid instead of battling the WK.

Your assumption is that there are two possibilities for this scene, the one that we saw and another where Gandalf and the Witch-King stare at each other in a 'harsh' manner. I see many other possibilities - my personal favorite (as stated earlier) has Gandalf smiling right before the Rohirrim appear. One could think of many others. The Witch-King could shoot fire from his fiery sword and Gandalf could duck, hide, whatever (sans Staff) or block the same with Staff. Shadowfax could threaten the Fell Beast and Gandalf could try to menace the WK with Glamdring from the flank. What if Gandalf with Staff on Shadowfax have a brief stand-off with the WK, the WK looks like he's going to do something bad, and Gandalf decides to rush him anyway, yet has to withdraw in order to shield Pippin, who got bumped off and was hiding around the corner? Anyway, whatever could have been filmed is a moot point, as you know I'm just not happy with what was filmed (it's my one note I keep tooting ).

Originally Posted by Essex

As for his staff breaking (which is the main starting point for people's anger on this thread, Alatar), I've explained my reasoning behind it not being that great a deal in the Gandalf's staff thread in the books section.

Went there - nice post regarding Gandalf's staff. I posted regarding the same. And note that I equate 'staff-breaking' with 'making Gandalf look weak.' Sorry.

Originally Posted by Essex

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

I always felt that it was Gandalf (and he alone) that prevented any of Sauron's Army (WK included) from entering the city. IMO, it was the WK that blinked and went after the Rohirrim as he saw an enemy that he could handle/hamper. Opinions differ.

And wasn't it Pippin that kept Gandalf from riding after the WK? Not that this has anything to do with the scene in the movie.

And it's been my assumption that the EE DVDs have been for the fans, not for the average movie-goers.

Originally Posted by Essex

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

Agreed. But as I stated earlier, if it weren't for gripes about the movies, we wouldn't be reading anything here, and though I really appreciate the work that PJ et al have done, this does not mean that I need don my chearleader outfit and rah-rah every individual frame.

Note that I appreciate your comments.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by alatar

Agreed. But as I stated earlier, if it weren't for gripes about the movies, we wouldn't be reading anything here, and though I really appreciate the work that PJ et al have done, this does not mean that I need don my chearleader outfit and rah-rah every individual frame.

Rah! Rah!

[The Only Real Estel]

And wasn't it Pippin that kept Gandalf from riding after the WK? Not that this has anything to do with the scene in the movie

Yes & agreed. Yes, Pippin 'kept' Gandalf from riding out by informing him of Faramir's peril, & I agree, it probably doesn't have a lot to do with the movies.

[Essex]

Alatar,

IMO, it was the WK that blinked and went after the Rohirrim as he saw an enemy that he could handle/hamper. Opinions differ.

Here, IMO, we have textual fact that shows this is not the case.

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the Gate and vanished.

He saw victory slipping from his grasp as Tolkien says. Gandalf could wait.

And it's been my assumption that the EE DVDs have been for the fans, not for the average movie-goers.

fair point, they should be more for the book fans as PJ has stated, but just to make them so only rabid fans like us would buy them would be unprofitable.

....this does not mean that I need don my chearleader outfit and rah-rah every individual frame.

I do not do this either. I just take a stand point to defend the films where I see they CAN be defended. Because there needs to be a few of us out there on this website so the vast majority can have someone to argue with. Otherwisse there wouldn't be any point of this movie forum if everyone agreed how bad (or good) the PJ films were all the time.

Snorri, re your point on the standoff I said wouldn't work

Almost every Western I've ever seen suggests a scene like this would work. The WK and Gandalf staring each other down is pretty much equivalent to the scene in every Western were the two gunfighters stare each other down across the main road and the tumbleweed rolls between them.

Yes, but this usually ends up with one killing the other to give the scene some point, doesn't it?

St. Povis. Fair point on Gandalf's origins, but wasn't he sent to Middle-earth in the guise of a man with all his frailities?

PS A lot of posts state the basics of Gandalf is stronger than so and so, so he would have defeated him. This is not always the case. This WHOLE STORY is about the 'weak' beating the 'strong', isn't it? Just because you are stronger doesn't mean you will win every fight. Yes, you'd be favourite, yes, but not certain to win.

[St. Povis]

Originally Posted by Essex

But I ask again, WHY DID TOLKIEN WRITE THE SCENE THE WAY HE DID? BECAUSE THE ROHIRRIM SAVE THE DAY AND SAVE GANDALF FROM A CONFLICT THAT HE MIGHT NOT HAVE WON.

I can honestly say when I read the books, I feel that the Witch King has the upper hand. The film has not changed my feelings on this. The Rohirrim saved the day. Yes, Jackson upped the anti somewhat in this scene by using Gandalf's prone position and his staff breaking. For us book lovers, it would have been perfect for it to follow the scene in the book word for word. But to the average movie goer IT WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED.

Jackson did not write the movies just for us Book readers. He ALSO wrote it for the general movie going public who pay the vast majority of his and his crew's wages. I am grateful for his adaptation and admire his work and dedication greatly. I have learnt over the past 3 years not to let scenes I disagree with cloud the movie for me.

Now what about the fact that the Witch Kings death was foretold? Just because the 'prophecy states that the witch king will not be slain by man' seems to give him a great deal of arrogance, since he seems to believe that no man 'CAN' kill him. Its a load, if you ask me. I think anyone who has read the books, including the Silmarillion, must know that the Maiar are well and above elfin propehcy, shaping destiny in accordance with their Valar's restrictions. I'm not clear on how people feel about it, but I'm pretty sure a Balrog would waste the Witch King. Not the other way around...separate point, but something to chew on...This says nothing about the fact that Gandalf is not really a 'man' per se, but a semi/demi/quasi divine being sent to middle earth with an agenda of 'minimal interference' to reach the end result.

Now, prophecy means {to myself, among others} that the event of The Witch King's death was 'witnessed' by Glorfindel as an event in time. I sincerely doubt, that, with respect to what Gandalf was, as opposed to what the Witch King was, that prophecy held any real water with Gandalf, who might very well have *chosen* the 'nobler' deed of dying, rather than meddle too deeply in the affairs of men or elves so as to break a great tradition of prophecy in which man and elf alike placed token faith. For the Witch King to sit there and brag that no man can kill him would certainly have provoked an inner laughter, if not a flat out guffaw in the Withered Old Husk's faceless, (and crownless, in the movie) helmet! I've no doubt that Gandalf the Grey might have had some trouble with all nine ringwraiths, but Gandalf the White certainly would not have any trouble dealing with the Witch King and his posturing. Staff or no staff, I don't think that GTW would not have so much as flinched at his presence, much less fallen cowering to the floor, and probably would have laughed IF the staff broke, making some offhand remark about the Tolkein equivalent of Karma getting him back for having broken Saruman's staff. If he were forced to, he would fight the Witch king to a stalemate rather than kill him (which he surely could have done in a blink.) until the *moment* of prophecy, {which many believe he was well aware of}, came to pass. I think that what makes it disappointing is that, given a good once over of Gandalf as Olorin, and his The Hobbit/FOTR personality as a generally care free happy go lucky wizard in the Grey Robes, its just too much for people to let their imaginations create the reality that Gandalf is, for all intents and purposes, an obfuscator of many great secrets. His entire character, as written from Olorin to Gandalf the Grey, to Gandalf the White suggests that he knows an IMMENSE deal more than he lets on to the others "(Yes, it certainly has the 'Ring; of truth to it, etc)", and that, given his personality as Olorin, it probably breaks his heart to have so many solemn duties awaiting him and the people he loves. Almost as if he wants to disbelieve the fortunes he so clearly sees as they draw nearer and nearer.

That's one of the most irritating aspects of filmmaking: The slaughter of a good tale to reach the moonstruck to whom a great many subtleties are lost upon. Its one of the reasons I don't entirely blame Jackson (or the others) for his liberties. Certain things should be left alone, though. I agree with you to some degree, but certainly not in totality. I may very well be entirely wrong.





If that don't bugger all! I got myself wrapped up in this thread again! Curse you Shelob!

[aiea]

Originally Posted by Essex

Just to let you know, I've added a post to the Book section, Gandalf's staff, to put forward my point that the WK breaking Gandalf's staff can be seen as not that big a problem for the Wizard. Again, for the umpteenth time, I'm not condoning PJ doing this to the scene, I'm just stating that a Wizard's staff isn't the be all and end all of his powers. Take a look at the Gandalf's Staff thread if you're interested in my views at all...................

I had read just till here, but wish give my 2 cents too.

In the movie G the white is more differentiated from the grey than in the book.
Now we know that Gandalf etymology means a man (elf) with a stuff.
But gandalf the grey is dead at moria.
When G talk with Aragorn he remembered that his OLD name was Gandalf.
When he went Edoras he ask (winkling) to not separate a OLD man from his support...
Then he meet Saruman and Orthanc and break his staff (not a magic trick, but the simple truth of the will of the Valar.
Now G become really Saruman the white for what this means.
In the movie he used the staff to scare the nazgul-
Now why the With King is able to break the staff of G the White in the movie ? ( i find it to help to give resistance to the weariness of changes in movie )
Because G non need it anymore ! Because the Old wizard is dead and lives just the Light. And if some Old in G still lives (as in us watcher that wish he put down the Witch King with one of his fire/tricks) that has to be broken.
What we believe fear in G eyes is just the understanding of this truth. And that the evil has to bring it is one another truth.
And it is no case, but again providence that Rohan come now.
This is the reason why we not see a Witch King stroke Gandalf
... because there are Bigger Powers at Work and W. King is just a mean too...
You (and me) not like that the time of elves has to end and come the time of men (or Orcs as very well spoke Gothmog)
but that is written in Iluvatar theme...
The Witch King has to be defeated by a NEW man (this means Glorfindel prophecy) that has his value in Love etc.
This is what convince Faramir ,the truth of the Sam Gangee words.
So I believe Tolkien could forgive Peter J also if he betrayed him 3 times !

[alatar]

aiea, interesting take on the movie, and Welcome to the Downs!

Originally Posted by aiea

Now why the With King is able to break the staff of G the White in the movie ? ( i find it to help to give resistance to the weariness of changes in movie )
Because G non need it anymore ! Because the Old wizard is dead and lives just the Light. And if some Old in G still lives (as in us watcher that wish he put down the Witch King with one of his fire/tricks) that has to be broken.

I think that your interpretation of the 'Gandalf vs Witch King' scene would be more believable if Gandalf, lying on the ground, did not look so fearful.

[Aragrax]

Originally Posted by aiea

I had read just till here, but wish give my 2 cents too.
Now why the With King is able to break the staff of G the White in the movie ? ( i find it to help to give resistance to the weariness of changes in movie )
Because G non need it anymore ! Because the Old wizard is dead and lives just the Light. And if some Old in G still lives (as in us watcher that wish he put down the Witch King with one of his fire/tricks) that has to be broken.
What we believe fear in G eyes is just the understanding of this truth. And that the evil has to bring it is one another truth.
And it is no case, but again providence that Rohan come now.
This is the reason why we not see a Witch King stroke Gandalf
... because there are Bigger Powers at Work and W. King is just a mean too...
!

A wizard w/o his staff is less than a wizard. A wizard whose staff is broken is less than a man. Breaking Gandalf's staff would have pretty much ended Gandalf, even with him having Narya (the source of his fire skills, most likely, as well as courage and firey temper); he would have had naught but his own skills, that of a philologist (hmmm).

Gandalf would not simply have "not needed" the staff, as it was repeatedly implied that their staff was the only way an Istar (but not all Maiar: witness Melian and her "Girdle" [ring]) could excercise power, as that power **WAS NOT THEIRS**. Istari *served* the Secret Fire; they could fan it, but they did not own it. A wizard's (linear) staff was probably a projection of that radiated power of creation *which comes from above* like rays from the sun, as opposed to rings, which represent the binding of things that are already created. This was not symbolic, as JRRT hated allegory, but would have been literal.

Without the staff as a link back home, a wizard was implied to only have that strength which was their own (in the mortal forms they had been clothed in) and, like Prospero found when he released Ariel, this wasn't much. Remember that Saruman turned against the light, so was already fallen and powerless, reliant on *science* (a thing clearly un-favored by JRRT) for his progress, *even before his staff was broken*. He summoned no storms over Caradhras in the book (that was either the mountain itself, or the Balrog), had no "Matrix" telekinetic battles w/Gandalf (it is implied that orcs took G to the top of Isengard), and used only eugenics (if breeding orcs can be considered EUgenics), bombs, and verbal manipulation/propaganda within our literary sight. These skills are not the true power, but rather the "New Way" of "accursed" science, as shown by "Saruman of Many Colours"; when the white light was broken (refracted) Gandalf said that "it is not wisdom to break a thing to see how it works". The original, natural, source light was preferred by Gandalf to the refracted differentiation of the prying mind; "I liked white better" he said. This was a KEY moral lesson of JRRT, and pretty much nowhere to be found in the (tech-driven/special-effects-laden) movies. Thus Saruman's staff was broken, and he was, in the end, a dark wisp of nothing on the wind.

*************

@cfwmac007

Tom Bombadil was almost certainly not a Maiar, as he was FAR, FAR older than pretty much everything else in Arda. Likely he was an Ainur or, perhaps, he might even have been Iluvatar himself, dwelling (in an intentionally limited scope) in his creation for a bit, tho JRRT claimed otherwise (JRRT said Tom wasn't God, at any rate).

***************

@ Sarumian

Glorfindel dropped a 'Rog too. And died for it, just like G. And just like G (tho it was due to JRRT realizing he had Glor alive in LotR after he had him dying in TS) he was brought back to continue to serve.

****************

@ any here who posted in the past wondering why the WK did not fly over the wall in the books, and criticizing JRRT's reasoning (!?!?). . . Last I read LotR, Fell Beasts were clearly *not indestructable*, so a fell beast with a flight of arrows in its breast would become a FELLED beast, and the Nazgul atop it would be sent "winging" back to Mordor *without* a mount to provide those wings. Overflights of a wall topped with 1000 archers would do naught but to leave the ringwraith in need of a renewed form after a 100 ft fall. PJ simply misrepresented the evil "winged taxis" as armored fighter-bombers in the films, thus created a logical inconsistancy all by himself; JRRT never had any illogic here.

****************

AFAIC, dramatic tension could have been adequately served by focusing a lot of sound and fury into the scene. Shouting and waving of arms goes a long way *with the right direction*! Words of Power and Terror, and all that. Besides, is it not far more British to understate things? Just a tad?

****************

JRRT repeatedly took great pains to make these things clear, but PJ regularly ignored JRRT in toto, hearing the cacophanous shouting of his own subcreation in his head, and thus drowning out JRRT's quiet wisdom set silently upon the page. One might say the radiated creation of the books was obscured by the ringing shadow and twisted dark fire of PJ's rewrites.

Not exactly a fan of the films, as you can see, tho I liked some things that were done, and even have RotK on DVD (as it seemed the most faithful in the theatrical release, and was well paced).

Not sure if I find the Sauron vs. Aragorn fight worse than the Gandalf staff break, but both deserved to be left in that Dead Marsh called the Cutting Room Floor.

[Nerwen]

Welcome to the Downs, Aragrax!

Truly, you have chosen a thread of epic grandeur in which to make your first post!

[sassyfriend]

I liked it cause it showed Gandalf truely cared for Pippin

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

I liked it cause it showed Gandalf truely cared for Pippin

How so?

To me it just showed an unnecessary alteration in Gandalf's fundamental nature as depicted in the books.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

How so?

To me it just showed an unnecessary alteration in Gandalf's fundamental nature as depicted in the books.

Inzil, you might as well be replying to a spambot for all the stimulating conversation you can expect.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Aragrax

@ Sarumian

Glorfindel dropped a 'Rog too. And died for it, just like G. And just like G (tho it was due to JRRT realizing he had Glor alive in LotR after he had him dying in TS) he was brought back to continue to serve.

And Glorfindel was not a man but a High Elf, wasn't he. High Elves were able to withstand the fear of Nazgul. Even of nine of them together.

[sassyfriend]

What is the fear of the Nazgul exactly i don't really understand that part at all

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

What is the fear of the Nazgul exactly i don't really understand that part at all

Well, it's just that. The Nazgul made people shake in their shoes with horror and dread. Especially when they cried their cries. Even animals felt it.

[sassyfriend]

Ok thank you for explaining that to me. I felt dumb having to ask but sometimes I just have to ask stupid questions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

What is the fear of the Nazgul exactly i don't really understand that part at all

Precisely: PJ NEVER understood the fact that the Nazgul are ALL about fear. It's what they ARE. Clueless overage little boy. Watch his stupid children's films without knowing the book, one would never even get an inkling of it.

[Aragrax]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

And Glorfindel was not a man but a High Elf, wasn't he. High Elves were able to withstand the fear of Nazgul. Even of nine of them together.

No one loved elves like T. Not even Gygax, later.

"Oh God! Not another ******* Elf!"

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by aiea

I had read just till here, but wish give my 2 cents too.


Now why the With King is able to break the staff of G the White in the movie ? ( i find it to help to give resistance to the weariness of changes in movie )
Because G non need it anymore ! Because the Old wizard is dead and lives just the Light. And if some Old in G still lives (as in us watcher that wish he put down the Witch King with one of his fire/tricks) that has to be broken.
What we believe fear in G eyes is just the understanding of this truth. And that the evil has to bring it is one another truth.
And it is no case, but again providence that Rohan come now....
So I believe Tolkien could forgive Peter J also if he betrayed him 3 times !

Aiea, I really like your thoughts, but that means Gandalf was all the way wrong regarding his true mission since he resurrected. He was wrong, saying he was the most dangerous being in ME except Sauron, he was completely wrong asserting he was sent to ME as a steward and, finally assuming that dealing with WK was his job. And if there was no Gandalf but just light so why was he incarnated once again? As Alatar said several times those two minutes make PJ world look somewhat inconsistent.

In an attempt to save "the world" I would like to provide my own version of the event. Unlike the book, in the movie Gandalf the White exceeded the limitations imposed on him by Valar. He displayed too much power, repelling Nazgul; he intimidated Denethor and took over power in Gondor. So his staff was broken and he diminished. At the same time, he did it all due to occurring emergencies, so he was allowed to remain a councillor for Aragorn and welcomed back to the West in the end. May be this amendment can make it more consistent, but I doubt PJ and scriptwriters were going so far from the original story.