Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Aragrax]

Originally Posted by aiea

I had read just till here, but wish give my 2 cents too.
Now why the With King is able to break the staff of G the White in the movie ? ( i find it to help to give resistance to the weariness of changes in movie )
Because G non need it anymore ! Because the Old wizard is dead and lives just the Light. And if some Old in G still lives (as in us watcher that wish he put down the Witch King with one of his fire/tricks) that has to be broken.
What we believe fear in G eyes is just the understanding of this truth. And that the evil has to bring it is one another truth.
And it is no case, but again providence that Rohan come now.
This is the reason why we not see a Witch King stroke Gandalf
... because there are Bigger Powers at Work and W. King is just a mean too...
!

A wizard w/o his staff is less than a wizard. A wizard whose staff is broken is less than a man. Breaking Gandalf's staff would have pretty much ended Gandalf, even with him having Narya (the source of his fire skills, most likely, as well as courage and firey temper); he would have had naught but his own skills, that of a philologist (hmmm).

Gandalf would not simply have "not needed" the staff, as it was repeatedly implied that their staff was the only way an Istar (but not all Maiar: witness Melian and her "Girdle" [ring]) could excercise power, as that power **WAS NOT THEIRS**. Istari *served* the Secret Fire; they could fan it, but they did not own it. A wizard's (linear) staff was probably a projection of that radiated power of creation *which comes from above* like rays from the sun, as opposed to rings, which represent the binding of things that are already created. This was not symbolic, as JRRT hated allegory, but would have been literal.

Without the staff as a link back home, a wizard was implied to only have that strength which was their own (in the mortal forms they had been clothed in) and, like Prospero found when he released Ariel, this wasn't much. Remember that Saruman turned against the light, so was already fallen and powerless, reliant on *science* (a thing clearly un-favored by JRRT) for his progress, *even before his staff was broken*. He summoned no storms over Caradhras in the book (that was either the mountain itself, or the Balrog), had no "Matrix" telekinetic battles w/Gandalf (it is implied that orcs took G to the top of Isengard), and used only eugenics (if breeding orcs can be considered EUgenics), bombs, and verbal manipulation/propaganda within our literary sight. These skills are not the true power, but rather the "New Way" of "accursed" science, as shown by "Saruman of Many Colours"; when the white light was broken (refracted) Gandalf said that "it is not wisdom to break a thing to see how it works". The original, natural, source light was preferred by Gandalf to the refracted differentiation of the prying mind; "I liked white better" he said. This was a KEY moral lesson of JRRT, and pretty much nowhere to be found in the (tech-driven/special-effects-laden) movies. Thus Saruman's staff was broken, and he was, in the end, a dark wisp of nothing on the wind.

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@cfwmac007

Tom Bombadil was almost certainly not a Maiar, as he was FAR, FAR older than pretty much everything else in Arda. Likely he was an Ainur or, perhaps, he might even have been Iluvatar himself, dwelling (in an intentionally limited scope) in his creation for a bit, tho JRRT claimed otherwise (JRRT said Tom wasn't God, at any rate).

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@ Sarumian

Glorfindel dropped a 'Rog too. And died for it, just like G. And just like G (tho it was due to JRRT realizing he had Glor alive in LotR after he had him dying in TS) he was brought back to continue to serve.

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@ any here who posted in the past wondering why the WK did not fly over the wall in the books, and criticizing JRRT's reasoning (!?!?). . . Last I read LotR, Fell Beasts were clearly *not indestructable*, so a fell beast with a flight of arrows in its breast would become a FELLED beast, and the Nazgul atop it would be sent "winging" back to Mordor *without* a mount to provide those wings. Overflights of a wall topped with 1000 archers would do naught but to leave the ringwraith in need of a renewed form after a 100 ft fall. PJ simply misrepresented the evil "winged taxis" as armored fighter-bombers in the films, thus created a logical inconsistancy all by himself; JRRT never had any illogic here.

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AFAIC, dramatic tension could have been adequately served by focusing a lot of sound and fury into the scene. Shouting and waving of arms goes a long way *with the right direction*! Words of Power and Terror, and all that. Besides, is it not far more British to understate things? Just a tad?

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JRRT repeatedly took great pains to make these things clear, but PJ regularly ignored JRRT in toto, hearing the cacophanous shouting of his own subcreation in his head, and thus drowning out JRRT's quiet wisdom set silently upon the page. One might say the radiated creation of the books was obscured by the ringing shadow and twisted dark fire of PJ's rewrites.

Not exactly a fan of the films, as you can see, tho I liked some things that were done, and even have RotK on DVD (as it seemed the most faithful in the theatrical release, and was well paced).

Not sure if I find the Sauron vs. Aragorn fight worse than the Gandalf staff break, but both deserved to be left in that Dead Marsh called the Cutting Room Floor.

[Nerwen]

Welcome to the Downs, Aragrax!

Truly, you have chosen a thread of epic grandeur in which to make your first post!

[sassyfriend]

I liked it cause it showed Gandalf truely cared for Pippin

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

I liked it cause it showed Gandalf truely cared for Pippin

How so?

To me it just showed an unnecessary alteration in Gandalf's fundamental nature as depicted in the books.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

How so?

To me it just showed an unnecessary alteration in Gandalf's fundamental nature as depicted in the books.

Inzil, you might as well be replying to a spambot for all the stimulating conversation you can expect.

[Inziladun]

Discussions with the bots can be entertaining.

Anyway, I'm genuinely curious to know the reasoning behind sassyfriend's rationale.

[alatar]

On this topic, I'll have a discussion with a bot.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Aragrax

@ Sarumian

Glorfindel dropped a 'Rog too. And died for it, just like G. And just like G (tho it was due to JRRT realizing he had Glor alive in LotR after he had him dying in TS) he was brought back to continue to serve.

And Glorfindel was not a man but a High Elf, wasn't he. High Elves were able to withstand the fear of Nazgul. Even of nine of them together.

[sassyfriend]

What is the fear of the Nazgul exactly i don't really understand that part at all

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

What is the fear of the Nazgul exactly i don't really understand that part at all

Well, it's just that. The Nazgul made people shake in their shoes with horror and dread. Especially when they cried their cries. Even animals felt it.

[sassyfriend]

Ok thank you for explaining that to me. I felt dumb having to ask but sometimes I just have to ask stupid questions.

[Inziladun]

What the books and movies failed to elaborate on is the reason for the extreme fear generated by the Nazgûl. They themselves were afraid of water, and as a consequence, hadn't bathed in over two thousand years.

The Elves could withstand them because the noses of the Eldar were for ornamentation only.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by sassyfriend

What is the fear of the Nazgul exactly i don't really understand that part at all

Precisely: PJ NEVER understood the fact that the Nazgul are ALL about fear. It's what they ARE. Clueless overage little boy. Watch his stupid children's films without knowing the book, one would never even get an inkling of it.

[Aragrax]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

And Glorfindel was not a man but a High Elf, wasn't he. High Elves were able to withstand the fear of Nazgul. Even of nine of them together.

No one loved elves like T. Not even Gygax, later.

"Oh God! Not another ******* Elf!"