Let's Talk Morgoth

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

What I mean is the inhabitants of Me have to come the 'Truth' through personal judgement based on their experiences, not by accepting or rejecting the 'word of God'.

This is pure speculation & has just occurred to me, so I'm not it makes complete sense...

Makes sense to me, but you might want to get a second opinion as I may be nuts...

Anyway, regarding relevation: The elves had direct access to the 'divine,' and so they have no need for faith. Galadriel was in Valinor, so what are the chances that she may have doubts regarding the existence of Manwe et al? As far as she is concerned, the Valar are 'cousins.' She knows what will happen if she were to be slain, and also what awaited her when she took the last ship.

Orcs are basically smart animals - as we have not yet produced a valid argument that would allow for them to have free will - and so there is no need for revelation. As far we know, when orcs die they become worm food. No afterlife - nothing. There is the possibility that as they are on the 'evil' side that they may suffer some punishment after all is sung and done, but this is mere speculation.

Men (and Hobbits) are somewhere in the middle. In the past there has been revelation to certain individuals, and purportedly one man (Eärendil) made a sacrifice to redeem the world or something. The elves have provided information (second hand) yet estrangement has placed doubts. The Enemy also has muddied the waters regarding Eru, the other divines, etc.

During a golden age, men were much closer to the 'source,' yet this did not remove all doubts. As the island containing evidence regarding the same was drowned in a flood, information is scant and sketchy.

Also, for men the afterlife is uncertain. Even the elves, assuming that their information is correct, do not know what happens, though the oldest tales tell of man leaving the confines of Arda, something that the other races cannot do. Melkor has added fear to this information.

Due to past screw-ups wih the elves, the Valar avoid direct contact with men, and so any additional revelation is indirect and at times open to interpretation.

So it would seem that men, having no certain knowledge or revelation, are required to take leaps of faith. One can choose to be like the elves and believe that it's all true, or live like an orc, figuring that a worm's gullet is the final destination.

I assume that this was deliberate on JRRT's part.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

Orcs are basically smart animals - as we have not yet produced a valid argument that would allow for them to have free will - and so there is no need for revelation.

I would have thought that the behaviour exhibited by the likes of Shagrat, Gorbag, Ugluk, Azog and the Great Goblin, not to mention the existence of "quasi-independent" Orcish colonies and the development of an Orcish culture of sorts (songs, distinctive weaponry etc), provide a valid basis for arguing that they (or some of them at least) were higher than animals and had a degree of free will, whether or not one actually accepts that argument.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I would have thought that the behaviour exhibited by the likes of Shagrat, Gorbag, Ugluk, Azog and the Great Goblin, not to mention the existence of "quasi-independent" Orcish colonies and the development of an Orcish culture of sorts (songs, distinctive weaponry etc), provide a valid basis for arguing that they (or some of them at least) were higher than animals and had a degree of free will, whether or not one actually accepts that argument.

I would say that they do have free will - with the exception of ever being able to choose 'good.' For my argument posted previously, I have them having already 'chosen,' and so they no longer feel the need to reconsider/repent. Still, orcs are a bit murky.

Elves would be more 'spiritual' and orcs more 'animal/physical.'