Could animals talk? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thinlómien · 03-23-2005, 06:44 AM

A new aspect/detail: in the lament for Gandalf by Frodo is said that Gandalf spoke the language(s) of animals. (Sorry, I couldn't quote the thing - I don't have the book in english.) That mention could be only poetry and so not necessarily (clearly) true. I think that animals didn't really talk physically, but some people could understand their thoughts (refering eg. to the lament of Gandalf). Great eagles, dragons, Huan and Erendis' birds are different cases.

HerenIstarion · 03-23-2005, 07:09 AM

When evening in the Shire was grey
his footsteps on the Hill were heard;
before the dawn he went away
on journey long without a word.

From Wilderland to Western shore,
from northern waste to southern hill,
through dragon-lair and hidden door
and darkling woods he walked at will.

With Dwarf and Hobbit, Elves and Men,
with mortal and immortal folk,
with bird on bough and beast in den,
in their own secret tongues he spoke.

A deadly sword, a healing hand,
a back that bent beneath its load;
a trumpet-voice, a burning brand,
a weary pilgrim on the road.

A lord of wisdom throned he sat,
swift in anger, quick to laugh;
an old man in a battered hat
who leaned upon a thorny staff.

He stood upon the bridge alone
and Fire and Shadow both defied;
his staff was broken on the stone,
in Khazad-dûm his wisdom died.

***

The finest rockets ever seen:
they burst in stars of blue and green,
or after thunder golden showers
came falling like a rain of flowers.

Thinlómien · 03-23-2005, 07:49 AM

Thank you. That was the thing I was looking for.

drigel · 03-23-2005, 08:47 AM

I do not have the books handy, but did Legolas not whisper a few nothings into Arod's ear as well? I liken animals speaking in the works somewhat to the eagles: a lesser Deus ex machina or to more define a point (a fortiori), example: of course the animals knew this was the case, silly humans...

Essex · 03-23-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Did the fox speak?

I believe he 'thought' what the hobbits were doing.

Quote:

A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed.
'Hobbits!' he thought. 'Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this.' He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it.

Now to go totally off tangent, but do we need to be able to SPEAK in order to have structured THOUGHTS? I've always wondered if a human brought up in the wild by animals would have any 'thought' processes at all.

As I said, totally off tangent, but something I've always been fascinated with.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 03-24-2005, 10:57 AM

What if your mouth was tied by powerful wires?

But you could infer from that section that said fox went home and told his wife all about the Hobbits over a nice cup of tea.

It's just....nice, isn't it?

Gurthang · 03-25-2005, 02:05 PM

In The Hobbit, don't the wolves talk to each other at their meeting? It says that the dwarves and Bilbo could not understand them, but that Gandalf heard what they said. It then gives an account of what Gandalf heard.

Now, that seems to be pretty hard evidence that animials did have thought and conversation, at least among themselves. Gandalf understanding them could be because he was a Maia, or he could have learned from Radagast. Regardless, the wolves did communicate to each other with sound, which could be called speaking.

But this brings out another question. Does this even count? The wolves, although talking to each other, were not speaking in tongues that most people could understand. So basically, would we consider the wolves' growls/barks/whimpers to be 'talking' as we are defining it. This would be very similar to the clicks and whistles that dolphins use to 'talk'. It's obviously communication with sound, but do we dare call it talking?

03-23-2005, 06:44 AM	#1
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	A new aspect/detail: in the lament for Gandalf by Frodo is said that Gandalf spoke the language(s) of animals. (Sorry, I couldn't quote the thing - I don't have the book in english.) That mention could be only poetry and so not necessarily (clearly) true. I think that animals didn't really talk physically, but some people could understand their thoughts (refering eg. to the lament of Gandalf). Great eagles, dragons, Huan and Erendis' birds are different cases. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

03-23-2005, 07:09 AM	#2
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	good point, lady. Here the whole lament, for your pleasure When evening in the Shire was grey his footsteps on the Hill were heard; before the dawn he went away on journey long without a word. From Wilderland to Western shore, from northern waste to southern hill, through dragon-lair and hidden door and darkling woods he walked at will. With Dwarf and Hobbit, Elves and Men, with mortal and immortal folk, with bird on bough and beast in den, in their own secret tongues he spoke. A deadly sword, a healing hand, a back that bent beneath its load; a trumpet-voice, a burning brand, a weary pilgrim on the road. A lord of wisdom throned he sat, swift in anger, quick to laugh; an old man in a battered hat who leaned upon a thorny staff. He stood upon the bridge alone and Fire and Shadow both defied; his staff was broken on the stone, in Khazad-dûm his wisdom died. *** The finest rockets ever seen: they burst in stars of blue and green, or after thunder golden showers came falling like a rain of flowers. __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

03-23-2005, 07:49 AM	#3
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Thank you. That was the thing I was looking for. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

03-23-2005, 08:47 AM	#4
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	as the spirit took him... I do not have the books handy, but did Legolas not whisper a few nothings into Arod's ear as well? I liken animals speaking in the works somewhat to the eagles: a lesser Deus ex machina or to more define a point (a fortiori), example: of course the animals knew this was the case, silly humans... Last edited by drigel; 03-23-2005 at 07:55 PM.

03-24-2005, 10:57 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	What if your mouth was tied by powerful wires? But you could infer from that section that said fox went home and told his wife all about the Hobbits over a nice cup of tea. It's just....nice, isn't it? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

03-25-2005, 02:05 PM	#7
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	In The Hobbit, don't the wolves talk to each other at their meeting? It says that the dwarves and Bilbo could not understand them, but that Gandalf heard what they said. It then gives an account of what Gandalf heard. Now, that seems to be pretty hard evidence that animials did have thought and conversation, at least among themselves. Gandalf understanding them could be because he was a Maia, or he could have learned from Radagast. Regardless, the wolves did communicate to each other with sound, which could be called speaking. But this brings out another question. Does this even count? The wolves, although talking to each other, were not speaking in tongues that most people could understand. So basically, would we consider the wolves' growls/barks/whimpers to be 'talking' as we are defining it. This would be very similar to the clicks and whistles that dolphins use to 'talk'. It's obviously communication with sound, but do we dare call it talking? __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.