Who was the most foolish ruler of all? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

elronds_daughter · 05-14-2005, 04:56 PM

Hmm... I hadn't thought about Melkor, Hookbill, but you've got a good point.

You too, mormegil. Feanor certainly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer..

Boromir88 · 05-14-2005, 09:42 PM

I would disagree with Denethor. He was a man as Tolkien said became corrupted by politics, but he was quite good at what he did. All the more amazing still remaining to keep sanity (for the most part) while viewing the palantir for 40+, dealing with the death of his wife and son, and his other dying son, as well as seeing his kingdom on the verge of destruction. But, that's just a matter of differing opinions, it's definitely easier to dislike Denethor, then it is to like him.

I would vote Fengel. Just because he wasn't very well liked. He caused strife with his marshal's, his own son hated him so much he went to Gondor and was reluctantly returned back after his father died to take his place. He loved gold, cared nothing for friends. Sounds very stupid to me, and quite foolish.

Anguirel · 05-15-2005, 01:01 AM

Mormegil, I agree with you somewhat on Feanor, but would add the caveat that he was a brilliant general in times of war, with that crucial one Lionheart-like weakness-lack of self-preservation. I also understand his motives for "cutting himself off from the Valar", as splendidly expressed by him when he answers Manwe's herald. And the Kinslaying, though a terrible thing to initiate, has to be seen in the light of Finwe's death and Feanor's longing for revenge.

I would disagree entirely on Denethor.

It seems to me that we see all of Melkor's humiliations, because he's the baddie. That still doesn't mean we can neglect his achievements-if they can be called that, as they are all negative. Supreme among these for me is his mastery of treachery-twice against Maedhros (including the Nirnaeth), infinitely against Hurin's family, and against Turgon through Maeglin.

Ar-Pharazon is an excellent choice.

I don't actually think much of Helm Hammerhand. Belligerently stirring up racial feuds which led to the near destruction of Rohan.

Earendil, whatever else he was, proved a poor ruler to his people.

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...

I like this thread, and will return to it when I have more. Have we already got a positive one? I might ressurect if I find it.

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-15-2005, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

... with that crucial one Lionheart-like weakness-lack of self-preservation.

His diplomatic skills weren't too hot either.

Anguirel · 05-15-2005, 01:13 PM

Feanor's political career-and it truly pains me to say this-could be construed by some as similar to Hitler's; diplomacy being viewed by both as a cumbersome thing that can be lightly dispensed with. I prefer the metaphors I've thought up so far-Achilles and Richard Plantagenet, both heroes of mine-so far though...

William Cloud Hicklin · 04-12-2007, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

....similar to Hitler's; diplomacy being viewed by both as a cumbersome thing that can be lightly dispensed with.

Oh, no- Hitler was a big believer in diplomacy. He'd happily negotiate a treaty with any sucker so dim as to believe Adolf actually meant a word of it. "Smeagol lied," don'tcha know, old boy?

Bêthberry · 04-12-2007, 07:32 AM

I'd say it was a pair of rulers.

Melian for thinking that a girdle could hold back the ravages of time,

and Thingol for being the quintessential controlling, domineering, possessive dad.

Lady_Galadriel · 05-24-2005, 09:17 AM

this is an extremly wonderful topic!

[QUOTE=Anguirel]

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...
QUOTE]
i agree... who would put his power into a ring that would eventually fall into the wrong hands and destroy middle earth as we know it?! thats just nuts!

yavanna II · 06-09-2005, 04:52 AM

I'd like to agree for Ar-Pharazon... a really stupid git who took an evil Maia home with him... hasn't he got the wits to think about how cunning Sauron can be, I mean, he's just too proud... and he really isn't the heir, it was his cousin/wife Miriel...

Also I'd like to point out that Tar Palantir did the very mistake of not securing the kingdom to his daughter... though he really isn't stupid, he just overlooked the fact that his brother and his nephew wanted to rebel against the Valar...

Tuor of Gondolin · 06-09-2005, 10:18 AM

I've got to go with Tuor's daddy-in-law, Turgon. He's known for a long time Gondolin can't be stayed in forever and he gets as clear a warning as
seems possible that it's time to say "Hasta la vista, , baby" , but then
(to quote Professor Harold Hill) "He dillies and he dallies."

Lhunardawen · 06-11-2005, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...

Darn this ten-reps-in-between rule...

And not considering all the possibilities of your foes defeating you is a bad way to go, too.

05-14-2005, 04:56 PM	#1
elronds_daughter Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its. Posts: 644	Hmm... I hadn't thought about Melkor, Hookbill, but you've got a good point. You too, mormegil. Feanor certainly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.. __________________ I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat.

05-14-2005, 09:42 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	I would disagree with Denethor. He was a man as Tolkien said became corrupted by politics, but he was quite good at what he did. All the more amazing still remaining to keep sanity (for the most part) while viewing the palantir for 40+, dealing with the death of his wife and son, and his other dying son, as well as seeing his kingdom on the verge of destruction. But, that's just a matter of differing opinions, it's definitely easier to dislike Denethor, then it is to like him. I would vote Fengel. Just because he wasn't very well liked. He caused strife with his marshal's, his own son hated him so much he went to Gondor and was reluctantly returned back after his father died to take his place. He loved gold, cared nothing for friends. Sounds very stupid to me, and quite foolish. __________________ Fenris Penguin

05-15-2005, 01:01 AM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Mormegil, I agree with you somewhat on Feanor, but would add the caveat that he was a brilliant general in times of war, with that crucial one Lionheart-like weakness-lack of self-preservation. I also understand his motives for "cutting himself off from the Valar", as splendidly expressed by him when he answers Manwe's herald. And the Kinslaying, though a terrible thing to initiate, has to be seen in the light of Finwe's death and Feanor's longing for revenge. I would disagree entirely on Denethor. It seems to me that we see all of Melkor's humiliations, because he's the baddie. That still doesn't mean we can neglect his achievements-if they can be called that, as they are all negative. Supreme among these for me is his mastery of treachery-twice against Maedhros (including the Nirnaeth), infinitely against Hurin's family, and against Turgon through Maeglin. Ar-Pharazon is an excellent choice. I don't actually think much of Helm Hammerhand. Belligerently stirring up racial feuds which led to the near destruction of Rohan. Earendil, whatever else he was, proved a poor ruler to his people. But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical... I like this thread, and will return to it when I have more. Have we already got a positive one? I might ressurect if I find it. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

05-15-2005, 01:13 PM	#5
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Feanor's political career-and it truly pains me to say this-could be construed by some as similar to Hitler's; diplomacy being viewed by both as a cumbersome thing that can be lightly dispensed with. I prefer the metaphors I've thought up so far-Achilles and Richard Plantagenet, both heroes of mine-so far though... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

04-12-2007, 07:32 AM	#7
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	fools and their jewels I'd say it was a pair of rulers. Melian for thinking that a girdle could hold back the ravages of time, and Thingol for being the quintessential controlling, domineering, possessive dad.

05-24-2005, 09:17 AM	#8
Lady_Galadriel Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Shire, Hobbiton, Middle Earth Posts: 135	this is an extremly wonderful topic! [QUOTE=Anguirel] But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical... QUOTE] i agree... who would put his power into a ring that would eventually fall into the wrong hands and destroy middle earth as we know it?! thats just nuts! __________________ " You can't toast me!"

06-09-2005, 04:52 AM	#9
yavanna II Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: in my own little world Posts: 142	I'd like to agree for Ar-Pharazon... a really stupid git who took an evil Maia home with him... hasn't he got the wits to think about how cunning Sauron can be, I mean, he's just too proud... and he really isn't the heir, it was his cousin/wife Miriel... Also I'd like to point out that Tar Palantir did the very mistake of not securing the kingdom to his daughter... though he really isn't stupid, he just overlooked the fact that his brother and his nephew wanted to rebel against the Valar...

06-09-2005, 10:18 AM	#10
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	I've got to go with Tuor's daddy-in-law, Turgon. He's known for a long time Gondolin can't be stayed in forever and he gets as clear a warning as seems possible that it's time to say "Hasta la vista, , baby" , but then (to quote Professor Harold Hill) "He dillies and he dallies." __________________ Aure Entuluva!