Outrage?

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by davem

Problem being - the magic originates within this world. It does not have an external source. There is nothing beyond the circles of the world. Neither is there any other place to go to after death - Harry's parents merely hang around as ghosts - inevitably, as there is nowhere for them to go. Also, nothing can 'break in' to this world. This world is a closed system. If people are to be 'saved' they must save themselves, there is no external,objective standard of Good (or evil).

I'm bound to turn off 'banning books' course, and stray from Tolkien up to and extent, but I have a minor bone to pick here.

The attitude towards death as the worst that can happen is Voldemort's position, and is shared by characters who do not yet know better. Though 'dementor's kiss' be a huge mistake on Rowling's part, unless, of course. she distinguishes soul from spirit and soul is supposed to mean the psychological image of the person, or midset that is being lost when dementor kisses one. (the distinction is never made clear, or not made clear yet, hope to see something in books to follow)

But Dumbledore, up to and including volume 5 (I haven't got to 6th yet, there may be more interesting things to come there, I'll come back later with them) constantly hints about death as being not the worst that can ever happen.
Dumbledore tells Ron and Harry by the end of Book I:

After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure. You know, the Stone was really not such a wonderful thing. As much money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings would choose above all -- the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things that are worst for them

It is Ron and Harry's flaw not to follow suit:

So the Stone's gone?" said Ron finally. "Flamel's just going to die?"
"That's what I said, but Dumbledore thinks that -- what was it? -- 'to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
"I always said he was off his rocker," said Ron, looking quite impressed at how crazy his hero was.

It is Ron's and Harry's lack of understadning, not Rowling's (which seems to me siding with Dumbledore):

'But there can't be anything worse than the Avada Kedavra Curse, can there?' said Ron. What's worse than death?'
'Maybe it's something that can kill loads of people at once,' suggested George.
'Maybe it's some particularly painful way of killing people,' said Ron fearfully

Hint by opposite, the whole conversation seemed to me. The dialogue certainly has a taint of implying these kids do not know all there is to know, and therefore, death is not the worst, extending the logical chain to indicate death is not that bad, by and large

In book 5, when Dumbledore directly opposes Voldemort in the ministry, such and intercourse occurs:

There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!' snarled Voldemort.
You are quite wrong,' said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as though they were discussing the matter over drinks

And, finally, there is a hint that there is something beyond the world, and the evaluative shade the conversation again bears indicates that it is good to get there. I refer to Harry's hope that his dead godfather Sirius may have stayed with him as a ghost, as he inquires Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington, or Nearly Headless NIck, Gryffindor's resident ghost, if Nick have seen Sirius:

He will not come back,' repeated Nick. `He will have… gone on.'
`What d'you mean, "gone on"?' said Harry quickly `Gone on where? Listen - what happens when you die, anyway? Where do you go? Why doesn't everyone come back? Why isn't this place full of ghosts? Why -?T
'I cannot answer,' said Nick.
`You're dead, aren't you?' said Harry exasperatedly. `Who can answer better than you?'
'I was afraid of death,' said Nick softly. `I chose to remain behind. I sometimes wonder whether I oughtn't to have… well, that is neither here nor there… in fact, I am neither here nor there…' He gave a small sad chuckle. `I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead

I suppose all this must have found further development in Book VI, as I've said, I'll get back.

C'mon, get off it, I myself thought there was nothing worse than death when I was fifteen!

But any time Dumbledore and Harry are paired over the subject, they are almost Gandalf/Frodo-like figures, one wiser instructing the younger one in order for the latter to get the correct view of the world. It is not in an instant that Frodo comes to share Gandalf's opinion, is it? Same with Harry/Dumbledore.

And as for 'magic originates within the world' issue, just as good it does so. Otherwise, the 'book banners' would indeed have had grounds to have some grudge against Harry Potter series. To quote myself from Acceptance of Mythology thread:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

As a piece of literature, it is somehow closed on itself, therefore, inside its boundaries, one must rely on what is stated in it. Now, it is not said in it that all witches of HP performed some rites to draw their power from Enemy

On the other hand, what is said in it, and as far as the HP story goes is never unsaid, the magical powers of non-muggles in HP are not supernatural to the extent that those are not drawn outside of nature, but are something people are born with, as natural good sight, or musical talent. There is no free will involved in becoming a wizard for Harry Potter, he is natural born one. As this is concept, than common principles come in. As one can use his/her cleverness to good or bad ends, so one can use one's magical abilities.

People you looked up in a dictionary were quite ordinary men and women, who became sorceres and witches as a consequence of act of choosing

Which moves HP magic onto the same plane as ME one is - natural gift of Creator, used, according to choices performed with the free will, to be in accordance with His will or to disobey him

And further note - I won't return to this here topic unless I read book VI, as I'm afraid someone must have read it already and may spoil my fun quoting some more samples

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

I can't answer this question, not really at least. There is a difference between the LOTR and the Harry Potter. Harry Potter seems to make direct use of Witch Craft, and the Author makes it out to be a good thing. LOTR is deferent, J. R. R. Tolkien has magic in his book, but the book does not dwell around magic. I don't know enough about Harry Potter to say more then that, but I hope that helped the conversation if only a little bit.

[Elu Ancalime]

I think its a bit silly, banning books from school and public libraries. Religous places (churches, synagoges, mosques, etc) I guess have their own rules, since it is religon, but i think the main problem is that some kids get really into it, and play around like they're wizards battling monsters and read HP all the time. Then they get carried away and such.... But its usually either little kids who dont know any better and adults dont want any impression on them, or really (please excuse this term, at least here me out) honest-to-goodness-nerds that formulate their own Muggle religion and what not. Have I personally met someone like this? No, but I assure you there are. Sure, I think it would be really (mark me, really) cool to stop time and spend a year in Middle-Earth in the Fellowship or something. But I cant do that, so I have real things in my life....But anyway, the problem is when someone dosnt know when to take a break or a reality check or something. I admit, that after I 'discovered' Tolkien for about two or three years, i was in a sort of DIL-IM-A. (sp ) I read through all the Lost Tales, HoME, Silm, all that good stuff, all through Encyclopedia of Arda, so....Tolkien isnt exactly making new stuff, um....So I honestly did not involve myself in Tolkien for about six months (hehe not too long). And it was a nice little breather, but I found The Barrow Downs (forum anyway) and now I can disscuss Tolkien with other people!

Bottom Line? Healthy Obsession, Steady Moderation. (hmm...rhyme)
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