Gothmog: the poll - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hookbill the Goomba · 08-06-2005, 01:04 AM

Humm. This just reminds me how long it has been since I read The Lord of the Rings.

Looking at the characteristics that Orcs show throughout The Lord of the Rings, I think that it is unlikely that Sauron would place one in charge of his armies. Orcs are very little more than a mindless rabble from what we see. I do not think Sauron was that stupid.
I've not cast a vote yet as I think I'll need to think about it for a while. But so far, I don't think I'd be voting Orc. I'm also doubting Nazgul as I think all the other Nazgul are named at some point, aren’t they? (I can't honestly remember) But then again, The King of Angmar later became "The Witch King" so Sauron was a name changer.
However, if Sauron wanted to name a second in command after the king of Balrogs, then I suppose a Nazgul would be the obvious choice...

[EDIT] I've just voted Nazgul as it seemed the most likely.

the guy who be short · 08-06-2005, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nilp

He couldn't be a Nazgûl, as Gothmog is an Sindarin name, and all of the Nazgûl are either Númenórean or Easterling Men, with names derived from their languages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Sindarin was one of those languages of Numenor...

Akallabeth:

Quote:

So it cames to pass that, beside their own names, all the lords of the Numenoreans had also Eldarin names

"Beside their own names" implies that the Adunaic names were primarily used, with Sindarin names used in records or in communicating with the Eldar, that is, less frequently.

That said, I'm not yet decided, and haven't yet been through all the threads on the matter.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nilp

But surely Sauron started recruiting Nazgûl potentials during the years of Anti-Elven Númenor. Those chaps would have Adûnaic names.

Quote:

Originally Posted by North-Victor

That early on? I dunno for sure...

According to Appendix B, The One Ring was forged in about 1600 S.A. The Nazgul only appear at about 2251 S.A. though, so that should be the latest date of the Nazgul recruitment. About 1800 S.A. The Shadow falls on Numenor.

So yes, it would appear Sauron had started to choose his Nazgul potentials early on, but they would probably still have Adunaic names. So I don't think Gothmog could be a Nazgul.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And anyway, Sauron himself used Elven letters on the ONE RING, of all things.

What other letters were there to use?

Actually, what if Gothmog was simply the name given by the West to the lieutenant? In that case, he would have a different name in the black speech, and so all this language debate would be pointless...

Sigh. I think my brain might explode. Good job, Fordim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hookbill

I'm also doubting Nazgul as I think all the other Nazgul are named at some point, aren’t they?

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hookbill

But then again, The King of Angmar later became "The Witch King" so Sauron was a name changer.

I'm quite sure these names were given to the W-K by Men, not Sauron.

I prefer the Balrog wings debate...

Son of Númenor · 08-06-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Actually, what if Gothmog was simply the name given by the West to the lieutenant? In that case, he would have a different name in the black speech, and so all this language debate would be pointless...

I don't think it stands to reason that the good guys would name their adversary randomly after a balrog of the First Age.

I also think Tolkien would have made it clear if Gothmog was a Nazgul, a Black Numenorean, etc. Never was Gothmog described in the way of the other Nazgul (striking fear into the heart of his enemies, etc.), and Tolkien went out of his way to describe the dark origins of the Mouth of Sauron, making him seem like something of an anomaly in the Third Age. Withholding Gothmog's race is to me either an indication that Tolkien didn't want us to know, or that he figured the reader would assume the lieutenant was a regular man or orc - the two races which made up the vast majority of Sauron's fighting force. Orc is obviously more likely, because as far as we know there were no living men in Minas Morgul.

Formendacil · 08-06-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

I don't think it stands to reason that the good guys would name their adversary randomly after a balrog of the First Age.

Who says it was random?

Gothmog- if a non-Nazgul- stands in about the same relation to the Witchking and Sauron as the first Gothmog did to Sauron and Morgoth: a second lieutanent not entirely associated with the first, and not quite as "prominent" in the tactical command.

And if we remember the Translator's Conceit, then it is entirely possible that Gothmog is a name inserted later by Frodo/Pippin/Gondorian transcriber to name the "Lieutenant of Morgul".

~Voted for Nazgul, but not convinced,

Formendacil~

Hookbill the Goomba · 08-06-2005, 02:24 PM

If we look at this logically, and think, "Who would Sauron most likely put second in command to Old Witchie?" And "Who would old Witchie put as his second?" it would have to be someone weaker than the Witch King, but much stronger than anything else in his armies.
A Nazgûl is beginning to look more likely to me now, as it seems that that would be the obvious choice. Something that both Orcs and men would fear more than anything of their own kind. Orcs and men could easily rise up against a captain who was of their own kind, being the jealous type. And Look at how Sauron (and Melkor) ruled the Orcs, "In fear" keep them in line. One of their own kind would not be able to do this effectively. So, in keeping with Sauron's character, A Nazgûl would be the most likely lieutenant to the Witch King.

Lhunardawen · 08-07-2005, 01:16 AM

Are you all kidding? Gothmog is obviously a pink Orcish individual whose eyes show strains of mutation.

Lhunardawen · 08-07-2005, 01:39 AM

Seriously, though, I'm quite undecided whether he is a Black Númenorean or an Orc chieftain. He being a Nazgûl is out of the question - at least for me - since it doesn't seem to make sense for the Witch-King to have another second-in-command other than Khamûl.

Oh, and as Hookbill said, the Orcs serve Sauron in fear, plus they barely show any influence or aura of authority over their fellow bad guys.

That leaves me with the second option - that Gothmog is a Black Númenorean who rose to the heights of Sauron's army the way Grima probably did in Rohan.

Maybe Mouth and Gothmog were close buddies in Númenor?

View Poll Results: Gothmog was
A Nazgûl	15	34.09%
A Black Numenorean	21	47.73%
An orc chieftan	8	18.18%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

08-06-2005, 01:04 AM	#1
Hookbill the Goomba Alive without breath Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla Posts: 5,912	Oh good grief! Humm. This just reminds me how long it has been since I read The Lord of the Rings. Looking at the characteristics that Orcs show throughout The Lord of the Rings, I think that it is unlikely that Sauron would place one in charge of his armies. Orcs are very little more than a mindless rabble from what we see. I do not think Sauron was that stupid. I've not cast a vote yet as I think I'll need to think about it for a while. But so far, I don't think I'd be voting Orc. I'm also doubting Nazgul as I think all the other Nazgul are named at some point, aren’t they? (I can't honestly remember) But then again, The King of Angmar later became "The Witch King" so Sauron was a name changer. However, if Sauron wanted to name a second in command after the king of Balrogs, then I suppose a Nazgul would be the obvious choice... [EDIT] I've just voted Nazgul as it seemed the most likely. __________________ I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... Last edited by Hookbill the Goomba; 08-06-2005 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Rats in the pipes

08-06-2005, 02:24 PM	#5
Hookbill the Goomba Alive without breath Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla Posts: 5,912	If we look at this logically, and think, "Who would Sauron most likely put second in command to Old Witchie?" And "Who would old Witchie put as his second?" it would have to be someone weaker than the Witch King, but much stronger than anything else in his armies. A Nazgûl is beginning to look more likely to me now, as it seems that that would be the obvious choice. Something that both Orcs and men would fear more than anything of their own kind. Orcs and men could easily rise up against a captain who was of their own kind, being the jealous type. And Look at how Sauron (and Melkor) ruled the Orcs, "In fear" keep them in line. One of their own kind would not be able to do this effectively. So, in keeping with Sauron's character, A Nazgûl would be the most likely lieutenant to the Witch King. __________________ I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...

08-07-2005, 01:16 AM	#6
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	Are you all kidding? Gothmog is obviously a pink Orcish individual whose eyes show strains of mutation.

08-07-2005, 01:39 AM	#7
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	Seriously, though, I'm quite undecided whether he is a Black Númenorean or an Orc chieftain. He being a Nazgûl is out of the question - at least for me - since it doesn't seem to make sense for the Witch-King to have another second-in-command other than Khamûl. Oh, and as Hookbill said, the Orcs serve Sauron in fear, plus they barely show any influence or aura of authority over their fellow bad guys. That leaves me with the second option - that Gothmog is a Black Númenorean who rose to the heights of Sauron's army the way Grima probably did in Rohan. Maybe Mouth and Gothmog were close buddies in Númenor?