LOTR and your Weltanschauung - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mister Underhill*** · 08-15-2005, 10:24 AM

I wasn't suggesting anything so much as I was making an observation: that in my experience most (not all!) people take up LotR when they are young, or not at all. How much this says about LotR, and how much about our culture and the effects of age, I can't say. Also, I felt that Tolkien had had a rather profound and, as it turns out, lasting effect on me, and I wondered if others might have had similar experiences.

I would not go so far as to say that young and impressionable people necessarily get more "value" out of LotR by virtue of their inexperience, although I'd say they are more apt to be receptive to its idealistic moral standpoint. Whether that standpoint is valuable or not has been the subject of some debate. As I recall from a certain philosophy thread -- or was it one about characterization? -- there are at least a few Downers who are attracted to LotR's moral philsophy on some abstract level, but consider it untenable or at least unrealistic in "the real world".

Anyway, this thread was meant more as a place for people to share or to speculate about how (or if) Tolkien's work had any significant impact on their own personal Weltanschauung than a place for making any sweeping generalizations about who gets more value out of LotR.

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

mark12_30 · 08-15-2005, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

Last year I could pronounce it without a Russian accent... not this year.

"Weltanschauungskina."

Bêthberry · 08-15-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Anyway, this thread was meant more as a place for people to share or to speculate about how (or if) Tolkien's work had any significant impact on their own personal Weltanschauung than a place for making any sweeping generalizations about who gets more value out of LotR.

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

Ah, hmm. Well, I wasn't so much interested in getting the broomsticks out or making hierarchies of readers. I had thought I was ontopic and maybe taking the subject farther, since the thread had needed six 'ups' on the first page to keep it going.

I was wondering if to some degree the book impacts on people who are already predisposed towards a certain world view rather than being a prime influence in helping establish that Weltanschauung. Maybe just a chicken and egg point however.

But perhaps you are right in focussing just on the kind of subjectivity itself. Young people might be said to be rather more into the Sturm und Drang.

***Mister Underhill*** · 08-15-2005, 03:14 PM

I didn't mean to zing you for being off-topic; I only meant to articulate what interests me about the thread. You're right that it hasn't been, over the years, a smash hit of Canonicity proportions, but I daresay there's quality -- if not quantity -- here that rivals some of the more analytical threads of recent times.

As an artist, I'm very interested in thinking about what effect or impact my work can have on other people. What is possible beyond mere entertainment? As a reader, LotR is one work I can definitely point a finger at and say, "Well that did something." So I mean, in answer to your questions, I can't say whether young readers get more value in general out of LotR than older readers, or whether LotR activates some philosophical predisposition in readers or actually helps form the philosophy from the ground up. I can't even answer those questions definitively for myself, let alone for some hypothetical group of readers.

Let me ask you this: at what age did you first read Tolkien? What impact, if any, do you think he had on your Weltanschauung? I'm also interested in the replies of people who say, no, no book has affected or is likely to significantly affect my worldview, if that's your experience.

Bêthberry · 08-19-2005, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

As an artist, I'm very interested in thinking about what effect or impact my work can have on other people. What is possible beyond mere entertainment?

Hasn't the role of art has always been questioned as pure or sole delight" Isn't there some old saying about "to inform and delight"? I seem to recall that phrase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

I can't even answer those questions definitively for myself, let alone for some hypothetical group of readers.

Let me ask you this: at what age did you first read Tolkien? What impact, if any, do you think he had on your Weltanschauung? I'm also interested in the replies of people who say, no, no book has affected or is likely to significantly affect my worldview, if that's your experience.

I'm quite the same way, and actually wouldn't want to create some sort of hierarchy of 'most influential' etc. (I really dislike those kinds of polls "Best Book of the Century". Wouldn't want to see superlatives become a 'one ring' I guess.)

I didn't first read Tolkien as a teen, though. I must say that his thoughts about fantasy have certainly given me much pause for thought.

EDIT: Well, I'm not sure if it is kosher to copy a post in this way, but I just read Lal's statement on Fordim's, "Are you a better person?" thread and thought it really pertained as well to Mr. U's interest, so here's a link to Lal's Weltanschauung .

Lalwendë · 08-19-2005, 01:01 PM

Well, seeing as Bethberry copied in my post and Mr Underhill is asking - I underwent a gradual change after first reading Tolkien, wanting to learn more about myth, legend, basically anything remotely 'magical' (in the descriptive sense

). So about three years later I found that the faith I thought was strong, was actually not strong and that it didn't fit me properly. I do not know what Tolkien would think if he knew a reader had actually lost their faith from reading his work - though I'm sure I was not the first.

The odd thing is that I simply did not register all the Christian morality and even imagery in Tolkien's work until many years later. It wasn't that I just thought his books were 'dead cool' (though of course they are

) but that the magical elements swept me away.

Is losing/changing your religion significant? It didn't seem so at the time as nobody really minded. Possibly Tolkien started it off in me, he certainly got me more interested in archaeology and pre-history and what we now term 'new-age' stuff, but maybe I was predisposed to that in the first place?

Judging by my fondness for His Dark Materials and Harry Potter, I reckon I'd have loved Tolkien just as much if I discovered his work in adulthood, but I'm glad I did find those books when I was young as I've had more time to enjoy them.

Thinlómien · 08-25-2005, 07:08 AM

I've been influenced by Tolkien from a six-year-old, so I really cannot tell, what is Tolkien's influence, and what is from me, or somewhere else... But it's clearly influenced something, but I don't know what, in fact. Perhaps it has made me think that nothing/no one is evil at the beginning, or that nothing is pure evil.

mark12_30 · 03-02-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

Indeed, it is fun. Give it a try. How did (or does) Middle-earth affect your worldview?

08-19-2005, 01:01 PM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Well, seeing as Bethberry copied in my post and Mr Underhill is asking - I underwent a gradual change after first reading Tolkien, wanting to learn more about myth, legend, basically anything remotely 'magical' (in the descriptive sense ). So about three years later I found that the faith I thought was strong, was actually not strong and that it didn't fit me properly. I do not know what Tolkien would think if he knew a reader had actually lost their faith from reading his work - though I'm sure I was not the first. The odd thing is that I simply did not register all the Christian morality and even imagery in Tolkien's work until many years later. It wasn't that I just thought his books were 'dead cool' (though of course they are ) but that the magical elements swept me away. Is losing/changing your religion significant? It didn't seem so at the time as nobody really minded. Possibly Tolkien started it off in me, he certainly got me more interested in archaeology and pre-history and what we now term 'new-age' stuff, but maybe I was predisposed to that in the first place? Judging by my fondness for His Dark Materials and Harry Potter, I reckon I'd have loved Tolkien just as much if I discovered his work in adulthood, but I'm glad I did find those books when I was young as I've had more time to enjoy them. __________________ Gordon's alive!

08-25-2005, 07:08 AM	#7
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I've been influenced by Tolkien from a six-year-old, so I really cannot tell, what is Tolkien's influence, and what is from me, or somewhere else... But it's clearly influenced something, but I don't know what, in fact. Perhaps it has made me think that nothing/no one is evil at the beginning, or that nothing is pure evil. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

08-15-2005, 10:24 AM	#1
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	I wasn't suggesting anything so much as I was making an observation: that in my experience most (not all!) people take up LotR when they are young, or not at all. How much this says about LotR, and how much about our culture and the effects of age, I can't say. Also, I felt that Tolkien had had a rather profound and, as it turns out, lasting effect on me, and I wondered if others might have had similar experiences. I would not go so far as to say that young and impressionable people necessarily get more "value" out of LotR by virtue of their inexperience, although I'd say they are more apt to be receptive to its idealistic moral standpoint. Whether that standpoint is valuable or not has been the subject of some debate. As I recall from a certain philosophy thread -- or was it one about characterization? -- there are at least a few Downers who are attracted to LotR's moral philsophy on some abstract level, but consider it untenable or at least unrealistic in "the real world". Anyway, this thread was meant more as a place for people to share or to speculate about how (or if) Tolkien's work had any significant impact on their own personal Weltanschauung than a place for making any sweeping generalizations about who gets more value out of LotR. Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

08-15-2005, 03:14 PM	#4
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	I didn't mean to zing you for being off-topic; I only meant to articulate what interests me about the thread. You're right that it hasn't been, over the years, a smash hit of Canonicity proportions, but I daresay there's quality -- if not quantity -- here that rivals some of the more analytical threads of recent times. As an artist, I'm very interested in thinking about what effect or impact my work can have on other people. What is possible beyond mere entertainment? As a reader, LotR is one work I can definitely point a finger at and say, "Well that did something." So I mean, in answer to your questions, I can't say whether young readers get more value in general out of LotR than older readers, or whether LotR activates some philosophical predisposition in readers or actually helps form the philosophy from the ground up. I can't even answer those questions definitively for myself, let alone for some hypothetical group of readers. Let me ask you this: at what age did you first read Tolkien? What impact, if any, do you think he had on your Weltanschauung? I'm also interested in the replies of people who say, no, no book has affected or is likely to significantly affect my worldview, if that's your experience.