Belling the Ring - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hookbill the Goomba · 09-09-2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

... Would one be able to utterly destroy Sauron yet keep the Ring?

Isildur, ring any bells?

[edit] He he, 'Ring' any bells

[/edit]

alatar · 09-09-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Isildur, ring any bells?

Okay, so I'm as blind as a ...oh, better not say, as I wouldn't want to inadvertently offend yet another animal

. Didn't see that. Anyway, what I mean is that not vanquish Sauron then remove his Ring (like in the case that you've noted), but use the Ring to vanquish Sauron, such as if Galadriel were to take possession of the One Ring and actively use it to destroy Sauron.

It would just be sooo much more helpful if y'all could see what I'm thinking instead of relying on what I write...Thanks for the help

HtG.

Lyta_Underhill · 09-09-2005, 11:50 AM

I have absolutely nothing to add in the cats vs. dogs debate, however, if I might draw a couple of literary device parallels, albeit both more contemporary references (don't read if you don't wish to be spoiled for "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" or "His Dark Materials", please don't read them!):

1. Parallel (possibly conscious, certainly subconscious) with Horcruxes from Harry Potter, the fixing of part of one's "soul" within a thing or person by use of magic. The destruction of a Horcrux results in the loss of that part of the soul fixed inside it. The One Ring might have been a predecessor/inspirational model for this, as part of Sauron is fixed inside the Ring, and to destroy it is to destroy him.

2. Parallel with the fantastic application of quantum entanglement from His Dark Materials. This theory, which I haven't really looked into has something to do with imprinting materials with certain identical "quantum states," which cause them to be intertwined and thus, one particle feels the effect of a force inflicted upon the other particle, even if they are separated by a great distance. The way it is used in "His Dark Materials" reeks of witchcraft, really, and who would have thought the fields of Modern Physics and Magic could be brought so close together! But in a way, this is the relationship of Sauron to his Ring. He feels it, if only faintly at a distance, but since it can only be destroyed in the Fires of Orodruin, we get the sense that it has to be in proximity to him. If there had been a dragon extant, perhaps the Ring could have been consumed in that way and some sort of "quantum entanglement" proven, but of course, we all know the dragon would just sit on it, hoarding it like all its other treasure!

I guess I'm not trying to prove anything with this post, especially not whether the Ring is canine or feline in nature, just that this "entanglement" idea is pervasive and thus in my mind, a feature of its applicability.

Cheers!
Lyta

Formendacil · 09-09-2005, 12:11 PM

Interestingly enough, I am a cat person. I like cats, I find them intelligent company, and someday I would like to acquire one for myself (currently, certain parents make that unfeasible). And I am not a dog person. I can appreciate them as a part of other people's lives and loves, but to me they hold no attraction.

And yet, I agree with Alatar's camp in that there is more Cat-applicable material in the Ring than there is Dog-applicable material. Interesting...

Fordim Hedgethistle · 09-09-2005, 12:25 PM

We live with two cats and two dogs, so I shan't enter the cat vs dog debate other than to say that as far as I am concerned its cats AND dogs.

The Ring is much more like a Platypus: something that just should not and could not really be, and yet, strangely, is...

Mithalwen · 09-09-2005, 12:34 PM

Isn't Sam the ultimate faithful hound? Even when he has wife and child he still wants to follow Frodo over sea......

I wonder if there will be a correlation between the cat/dog preference of downers and other major issues such as balrog wings.

Obviously I am a cat person although I don't have one in residence at the moment (despite the kind but rather impractical offer from a fellow downer to rectify this) ...my lifestyle means I will have to stick to my gorgeous comets Xue-er and Xinran - oh their sweet smily fishy faces each morning ......

Cats are not selfish. One of our cats would stay close by you if you were ill or alone in the house. Others would keep you company on walks and always welcome you home. When they bring you their kill, they are treating you as their kitten and "feeding you" - they can't understand while we don't appreciate it ( especially when they are trying to give you food for a journey and leave assorted rodents and birds in a half packed suitcase). They act selflessly as hotwaterbottles.

Cats are beautiful, mysterious, of ancient nobility, inspiration to poets, hardy and long (nine) lived (and the houseless fea of a cat will long haunt its home - you see a flicker of tail disappearing around doors) and slightly above the ways of humans - though they graciously agree at times to spend time with us mere mortals and give us the benefit of their wisdom...

The ring is not a cat .... cats are elves!!!

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-09-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

.... cats are elves!!!

I agree.

The connection being that both regard humans with disdain and consider them as having been put on the earth to cater to their needs.

Mithalwen · 09-13-2005, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I agree.

The connection being that both regard humans with disdain and consider them as having been put on the earth to cater to their needs.

I don't see any evidence for elves treating men as servants.... and don't get me started on why cats are better than men....

Lalwendë · 09-09-2005, 01:28 PM

Looking at it one way, there is a vested interest for Sauron in the Ring appearing to be 'sentient'. If anyone who finds it immediately associates it with 'evil' then it is highly unlikely that anyone will want to keep it. Hence tales of Isildur's 'fall' are highly beneficial to Sauron; they spread the reputation of the Ring as being something you simply do not want to keep. Likewise, the evil reputation can be of benefit when it appears to 'tempt' certain people who think they are strong-willed enough to master it.

As a concept, the Ring is incredibly powerful. Whether it actually does have any sense of being 'evil' is debatable as it is an object. That depends on whether we believe in 'magic' or not. I shall come back to that...

All of those who come into physical or visual contact with the Ring, or who at least hear of it have an opinion. In the main we see characters who don't want anything to do with it, e.g. Gandalf, Faramir. We also see characters who do want to deal with it (usually in a tangible sense) such as Bilbo, Gollum, Boromir, Frodo - all of whom have their own reasons for doing so. Only one character remains unmoved by it, Tom Bombadil. Does he view it as a simple object?

But to accept the story, to be immersed into it and accept the danger that faces Middle-earth, the reader too must believe the 'magic', that the Ring is evil. If we don't, then wouldn't the story become redundant?

I currently believe the power of the Ring is linked somewhat to osanwe; Sauron has poured much of his own mind/fea/something like that into its creation, and the 'call' of the Ring acts on those principles. Of course, that's my current way of thinking, maybe I'll read something else to change my mind sooner or later, because the Ring is something of an enigma.

Whether the Ring is a 'cat' or 'like a cat', depends on how you view cats. I can see one Bagpuss-like specimen now, sleeping off his dinner; this cat offers comfort when his owners are upset or ill. He has to be carried to bed at night, and he is trained to 'speak' to his mum when he wants something.

That doesn't sound ring-like to me.

Bêthberry · 09-09-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saucy

Er, when did I ever say that Ancient Egyptians or pagans belong in Mordor? Are you perchance assuming an imperial attitude simply by virtue of my nationality? Perhaps that's ...

Quote:
... Another bit of cross-cultural myopia.

No, actually it was by virtue of the fact you have kept promising to elaborate on your own ideas for your Doest LOTR have cross-cultural appeal? thread but so far have failed to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Cats are beautiful, mysterious, of ancient nobility, inspiration to poets, hardy and long (nine) lived (and the houseless fea of a cat will long haunt its home - you see a flicker of tail disappearing around doors) and slightly above the ways of humans - though they graciously agree at times to spend time with us mere mortals and give us the benefit of their wisdom...

Oh dear. I'm not sure this bringing up of the number nine will help cats out, although I love your post, Mithalwen and completely agree about the houseless fea of a cat. And the sharing of their quest victories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alatar

I think that somewhere it states that Sauron, knowing more about the Ring than any other, fears that someone, possibly one of the above mentioned, will claim the Ring, overthrow him and set up a new shop. To me this does not sound like an object that is completely a part of and loyal to Sauron. Would one be able to utterly destroy Sauron yet keep the Ring? Don't know, but it seems that Sauron fears that another worthy Ring claimer will not do the Dark Lord's bidding nor make life comfortable for the same.

Frankly, I think the Silmarils had a similar effect to the Ring in creating desire in the beholder. And that covetousness sounds very much more Eruvian than feline or even canine. That sub-creative desire to make a totally-controlled creation which is completely irresistable. I think that 'take me, have me, surrender to me' is much closer to someone who insists upon having all the music all his way than any animal could possibly suggest.

alatar · 09-09-2005, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Frankly, I think the Silmarils had a similar effect to the Ring in creating desire in the beholder. And that covetousness sounds very much more Eruvian than feline or even canine. That sub-creative desire to make a totally-controlled creation which is completely irresistable. I think that 'take me, have me, surrender to me' is much closer to someone who insists upon having all the music all his way than any animal could possibly suggest.

I understand the comparison of the Ring to the Silmarils in regards to desire, yet never did it seem that the jewels made something happen, or took some action on their own. Hate to say it, but the Silmarils were more bovine as they seemed happy just sitting around chewing their cud, whether in Fëanor hands, Morgoth's crown, the sky, sea and earth.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 09-09-2005, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Isildur, ring any bells?

Sauron wasn't utterly destroyed. He came back.

Hookbill the Goomba · 09-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Sauron wasn't utterly destroyed. He came back.

Yes, thus proving that it couldn't happen!

That was the point I was trying to make, but I have, after reading some of The Letters, begun doubting my theories... oh dear...

09-09-2005, 11:50 AM	#3
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	Literary Entanglements I have absolutely nothing to add in the cats vs. dogs debate, however, if I might draw a couple of literary device parallels, albeit both more contemporary references (don't read if you don't wish to be spoiled for "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince" or "His Dark Materials", please don't read them!): 1. Parallel (possibly conscious, certainly subconscious) with Horcruxes from Harry Potter, the fixing of part of one's "soul" within a thing or person by use of magic. The destruction of a Horcrux results in the loss of that part of the soul fixed inside it. The One Ring might have been a predecessor/inspirational model for this, as part of Sauron is fixed inside the Ring, and to destroy it is to destroy him. 2. Parallel with the fantastic application of quantum entanglement from His Dark Materials. This theory, which I haven't really looked into has something to do with imprinting materials with certain identical "quantum states," which cause them to be intertwined and thus, one particle feels the effect of a force inflicted upon the other particle, even if they are separated by a great distance. The way it is used in "His Dark Materials" reeks of witchcraft, really, and who would have thought the fields of Modern Physics and Magic could be brought so close together! But in a way, this is the relationship of Sauron to his Ring. He feels it, if only faintly at a distance, but since it can only be destroyed in the Fires of Orodruin, we get the sense that it has to be in proximity to him. If there had been a dragon extant, perhaps the Ring could have been consumed in that way and some sort of "quantum entanglement" proven, but of course, we all know the dragon would just sit on it, hoarding it like all its other treasure! I guess I'm not trying to prove anything with this post, especially not whether the Ring is canine or feline in nature, just that this "entanglement" idea is pervasive and thus in my mind, a feature of its applicability. Cheers! Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

09-09-2005, 12:11 PM	#4
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Interestingly enough, I am a cat person. I like cats, I find them intelligent company, and someday I would like to acquire one for myself (currently, certain parents make that unfeasible). And I am not a dog person. I can appreciate them as a part of other people's lives and loves, but to me they hold no attraction. And yet, I agree with Alatar's camp in that there is more Cat-applicable material in the Ring than there is Dog-applicable material. Interesting... __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

09-09-2005, 12:34 PM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Isn't Sam the ultimate faithful hound? Even when he has wife and child he still wants to follow Frodo over sea...... I wonder if there will be a correlation between the cat/dog preference of downers and other major issues such as balrog wings. Obviously I am a cat person although I don't have one in residence at the moment (despite the kind but rather impractical offer from a fellow downer to rectify this) ...my lifestyle means I will have to stick to my gorgeous comets Xue-er and Xinran - oh their sweet smily fishy faces each morning ...... Cats are not selfish. One of our cats would stay close by you if you were ill or alone in the house. Others would keep you company on walks and always welcome you home. When they bring you their kill, they are treating you as their kitten and "feeding you" - they can't understand while we don't appreciate it ( especially when they are trying to give you food for a journey and leave assorted rodents and birds in a half packed suitcase). They act selflessly as hotwaterbottles. Cats are beautiful, mysterious, of ancient nobility, inspiration to poets, hardy and long (nine) lived (and the houseless fea of a cat will long haunt its home - you see a flicker of tail disappearing around doors) and slightly above the ways of humans - though they graciously agree at times to spend time with us mere mortals and give us the benefit of their wisdom... The ring is not a cat .... cats are elves!!! __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 09-12-2005 at 06:07 AM. Reason: gross error of apostrophe eeeeeeeeeek

09-09-2005, 01:28 PM	#9
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Looking at it one way, there is a vested interest for Sauron in the Ring appearing to be 'sentient'. If anyone who finds it immediately associates it with 'evil' then it is highly unlikely that anyone will want to keep it. Hence tales of Isildur's 'fall' are highly beneficial to Sauron; they spread the reputation of the Ring as being something you simply do not want to keep. Likewise, the evil reputation can be of benefit when it appears to 'tempt' certain people who think they are strong-willed enough to master it. As a concept, the Ring is incredibly powerful. Whether it actually does have any sense of being 'evil' is debatable as it is an object. That depends on whether we believe in 'magic' or not. I shall come back to that... All of those who come into physical or visual contact with the Ring, or who at least hear of it have an opinion. In the main we see characters who don't want anything to do with it, e.g. Gandalf, Faramir. We also see characters who do want to deal with it (usually in a tangible sense) such as Bilbo, Gollum, Boromir, Frodo - all of whom have their own reasons for doing so. Only one character remains unmoved by it, Tom Bombadil. Does he view it as a simple object? But to accept the story, to be immersed into it and accept the danger that faces Middle-earth, the reader too must believe the 'magic', that the Ring is evil. If we don't, then wouldn't the story become redundant? I currently believe the power of the Ring is linked somewhat to osanwe; Sauron has poured much of his own mind/fea/something like that into its creation, and the 'call' of the Ring acts on those principles. Of course, that's my current way of thinking, maybe I'll read something else to change my mind sooner or later, because the Ring is something of an enigma. Whether the Ring is a 'cat' or 'like a cat', depends on how you view cats. I can see one Bagpuss-like specimen now, sleeping off his dinner; this cat offers comfort when his owners are upset or ill. He has to be carried to bed at night, and he is trained to 'speak' to his mum when he wants something. That doesn't sound ring-like to me. __________________ Gordon's alive!

09-09-2005, 12:25 PM	#5
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	We live with two cats and two dogs, so I shan't enter the cat vs dog debate other than to say that as far as I am concerned its cats AND dogs. The Ring is much more like a Platypus: something that just should not and could not really be, and yet, strangely, is...