Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[Bill Ferny]

Darn it! Why don’t I notice these threads when they are new? Oh well.

In reply to the opening post:

The Catholic Church is generally known for its continuous frowning upon pre-marital sex, and its harsh stance on birth control…

I’ll take this as constructive criticism. It’s a shame, really. Catholic moral teachings regarding sexual intercourse is a single grain of sand on the vast shore of Catholic doctrine and theology. We Catholics really have to do a better job of letting people know what the Catholic Church is all about. (In fact, I’ve found that Catholics are the least prudish Christians I know!)

I wouldn't be making such a big deal out of this if it wasn't for the way that some people treat Tolkien's work. They like it because it's "clean," and "moral," and "upstanding," and so on and so forth. And it is, for the most part, exactly that. A nice distraction from out otherwise dirty lives.

I understand what you are getting at. However, there are much more obvious ways of showing the non-Christian aspects of Tolkien’s mythology. For example, his treatment of fae/hroa… a far cry from a Christian anthropology; or his treatment of free will, the fallen world, sin, and redemption - his Pelagianism is worlds away from orthodox Christian belief. Your example of an “illicit” sexual affair between Beren and Lúthien is simply too vague from the written material.

And after everything is over and done with, and Lúthien is a mortal, nowhere is it mentioned that her parents bless her union with Beren, or that there even was an official wedding.

We hear of people getting married, so forth and so on, but never is an actual wedding described. “And Aragorn the King Elessar wedded Arwen Undómiel in the City of the Kings…” (RotK, VI, 5). That’s pretty brief on the description, kind of like a Tolkien battle scene, ey? The reason is, as Helen, points out by quoting HoME, the actual marriage was the sexual intercourse, not the ceremony. For Tolkien’s mythology, the romantic love between male and female constitutes the marriage. Believe it or not, but his isn’t too far from the Catholic notion of marriage. However, if marriage is determined by sexual intercourse only, then it is… well… Pelagian. Once again Tolkien proves his mythology is quite divergent from the Christianity that he practiced in real life.

Squatter,

I think that in many cases a great deal too much is made of Tolkien's Catholicism.

Agreed.

…and in some cases, horror of horrors, his writing diverged from the minor tenets of his faith.

On the contrary, his mythology diverged from many of the major tenets of his faith.

…and let's not be under any illusions about this, marriage is for the benefit of other people: to announce and solemnise a commitment which already exists in the eyes of the two people involved.

Don’t be too hasty. Whatever you might personally think about ritual and ceremony, for the Catholic both ritual and ceremony are outward signs of an unseen reality. A wedding is more than just a stage show, but the real presence of Christ. (It always comes down to belief in the real presence, after all.) This, though, is actually irrelevant for the present discussion, as there are no sacraments in Tolkien’s Middle Earth. In Middle Earth, any wedding ceremony would indeed be nothing more than a stage show.

Sex within marriage is tied very strongly to the concept behind the Roman church's attitude towards contraception, which can essentially be summed up as "No copulation without procreation", in deference to Genesis II 28: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth", and given that this precludes both abortion and contraception, marriage is the most sensible and logical state in which to do one's multiplication.

I wonder how this can be? If all that people know about the Catholic Church is it’s moral teachings about sexual intercourse, how can said people not even know what the Catholic Church teaches about sexual intercourse? Once again, I’ll take this as constructive criticism, indicating that we Catholics really have to do a better job presenting our Church’s teachings.

Orual,

Well, the thing is that the only defining requirement for marriage in the Church (don't take my word on this, though, I'm no theologian) is mutual consent on behalf of the two parties being married. The actual ceremony is formality and officiality, "for the record" and all that.

The sacrament of marriage is in the mutual consent, finalized in the consummation (sexual intercourse). The primary ministers of the sacrament of marriage, from beginning to end, are the two people getting married. Not the priest! Kalimac. All kinds of sacramental marriages have nothing in the least to do with priests… What? Do you think we Catholics believe the only people in the world who are married are people who were married in the Catholic Church? Umm, no we don’t.

Thank you, Marigold Hedgeworth for looking up those quotes in the Catechism. However, the CotCC is often a little too brief for its own good, and there is much more to the ceremony than just adding communal validity to a marriage. The ceremony is part of the outward sign of the internal reality of marriage. It is the initial step in the ongoing sacrament of marriage. That sacrament, that internal reality, is, of course, the real presence of Christ, not just manifested in the consummation, but in the spouses lives together. The wedding ceremony takes place in the context of the Catholic mass, because the Eucharist is the center of the marriage relationship. Thus, for Catholics, marriage is a ritual, a very long ritual, one that married people participate in every moment that they are married, and one that starts with the wedding ceremony.

Lush,

If Beren and Lúthien were wedded in the fashion that Helen's quote from HoME describes, is it also not safe to assume that Arwen and Aragorn did the same thing?

Yes. There were no significant “religious” changes in Middle Earth prior to Aragorn’s and Arwen’s marriage.

I.e., that they were physically involved before the official marriage ceremony after the defeat of Sauron?

There is no indication from the text that they were. In fact it would have been rather difficult as they were separated during and after the war until Aragorn was crowned king.

But if they weren't, does Elrond have anything to do with that? And if he does, why?

Elrond both prophesied and imposed an injunction upon Aragorn and Arwen’s marriage, as Helen pointed out in her post. Arwen was not to be given to Aragorn unless he was the king of Gondor. In RotK, VI, 5 Elrond surrendered the sceptre, and laid the hand of his daughter in the hand of the king at the same time (and in the same sentience); there was intimate connection between him allowing Arwen to marry Aragorn, and Aragorn being king.

But does that also mean that Elrond, in all his wisdom, could not see true love (the kind described in HoME) right in front of him?

Perhaps, in all his wisdom, Elrond could see the price of true love. We often forget that love, no matter if its charitable or romantic, is at its root, has for its very essence, sacrifice. Love demands a price. Helen, I’m glad you added the following quote in your post: “greater love has no man than this: to lay down one's life for another.” There is no better definition.

[wispeight]

[QUOTE=Bill Ferny;42518]Darn it! Why don’t I notice these threads when they are new? Oh well.

In reply to the opening post:



I’ll take this as constructive criticism. It’s a shame, really. Catholic moral teachings regarding sexual intercourse is a single grain of sand on the vast shore of Catholic doctrine and theology. We Catholics really have to do a better job of letting people know what the Catholic Church is all about. (In fact, I’ve found that Catholics are the least prudish Christians I know!)



I understand what you are getting at. However, there are much more obvious ways of showing the non-Christian aspects of Tolkien’s mythology. For example, his treatment of fae/hroa… a far cry from a Christian anthropology; or his treatment of free will, the fallen world, sin, and redemption - his Pelagianism is worlds away from orthodox Christian belief. Your example of an “illicit” sexual affair between Beren and Lúthien is simply too vague from the written material.

We hear of people getting married, so forth and so on, but never is an actual wedding described. “And Aragorn the King Elessar wedded Arwen Undómiel in the City of the Kings…” (RotK, VI, 5). That’s pretty brief on the description, kind of like a Tolkien battle scene, ey? The reason is, as Helen, points out by quoting HoME, the actual marriage was the sexual intercourse, not the ceremony. For Tolkien’s mythology, the romantic love between male and female constitutes the marriage. Believe it or not, but his isn’t too far from the Catholic notion of marriage. However, if marriage is determined by sexual intercourse only, then it is… well… Pelagian. Once again Tolkien proves his mythology is quite divergent from the Christianity that he practiced in real life.

~~~
I don't have anything to say in regard to Catholics because I simply do not think of that religion. Not out of indifference, but simply focussed elsewhere. From what I have found written in regard to Palagius, I have noted that almost all historic written record concerning Palagius comes from his contemporary opponents. I find that he was concerned with WILL. Not 'will' that is concerned with every passion and desire concerning physical existence. Although I believe that gifts of Nature are not evil, even the seperation of humanity into male and female was a gift of Nature, at least, one might choose to look at it in this manner, and not be completely incorrect. Dang, I only wanted to give some small defense to Palagius and I'm lecturing instead. No, I'm being really brief, so I claim innocence to the charge of lecturing.

Each one of us have at our Heart of Being that WILL which is coeval to High Divinity. We are not seperate from it. Even when we fail at making a completely conscious accord and concord with That, it is still able, through interpermeability to guide us, and it is not so difficult to learn when to know this is happening. It is knowing what to listen to inside.