Is Eru God?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

And yet, Mith you have failed to put your vote where your mouth is....why the reluctance to weigh in with an actual "Yes" or "No"?

.

Surely it is the most honest and natural course of action for an agnostic?

[Folwren]

I voted no, and for those who are keeping close tabs on this - I'm working on my reasons offline.

-- Folwren

[Bergil]

To my mind, there are no (or few) "christian morals", or rather, they're little different from everyone else's morals. You do the right thing (because it's right or for a reward CF:Heaven), or you do the wrong thing. In other words, I can't tell whether or not Eru is THAT god or A god, they all look similar.

I didn't vote.

[davem]

There's a downloadable issue of Vinyar Tengwar http://www.elvish.org/VT/VT43sample.pdf which contains Tolkien's translations of the Lord's Prayer & the Ave Maria. Tolkien uses 'Eru' to translate 'God'.

For what its worth - Tolkien seems to have considered the two words equivalent - only really stubborn & awkward people would deny that

However, I'm not sure that actually proves anything, or contributes very much...

[Lalwendë]

Stubborn and awkward it may be, but this only proves that Tolkien used that word in this linguistic experiment as it was as close as he could get in the Elvish language. Translating prayers which clearly meant a lot to him he would have been keen to find an appropriate word in the Elvish language which was similar, but it does not mean that the two concepts/beings are the same thing. He came up with a word for 'Jesus' in the Elvish tongue; we know that the Elves did not have Jesus so does the fact that Tolkien came up with one now mean that Jesus also existed in Middle-earth?

[The Only Real Estel]

To my mind, there are no (or few) "christian morals", or rather, they're little different from everyone else's morals. You do the right thing (because it's right or for a reward CF:Heaven), or you do the wrong thing. In other words, I can't tell whether or not Eru is THAT god or A god, they all look similar.

So you have to look at God as not just a set of morals or else, yes, it is hard to tell whether he is "THAT God or A god."

I would say Middle-earth appeared to be governed by a moral code of some sort. That doesn't mean that it was a set of so called "Christian morals," though. All it means is that it wasn't a society where anything went.

But I would still say that Tolkien did not mean for Eru to be God [Jehovah].

*He did not pursue a personal relationship with what he created.

*He did not appear in ME that I'm entirely aware of, and he certainly never stayed there for any period of time nor made known to others who he was.

*He did not provide a way for all races to go to the Undying Lands.

Those are three examples that I could think of in the short time I had to post this. I still agree with Esty that, although there are certainly a fare share of parallels, Tolkien's Eru was not meant to be "THE God."

[The Saucepan Man]

Is Eru God?

No, of course not. He is a fictional character created by Tolkien as the God of fictional peoples. God in our world (whether He exists or not) is a God of real peoples.

Did Tolkien intend Eru to be God?

The evidence suggests that he did. It is natural that Tolkien created Eru as a reflection or aspect of the God that he believed in. The differences in their respective natures is irrelevant, as Middle-earth is set in a time which predates our own recorded history. And our interpretations of God vary between faiths and also at different stages within the texts of particular faiths (the God of the Old Testament is, for example, very different in many respects from the God of the New Testament).

Should the reader interpret Eru as God?

Well that, of course, depends upon the individual reader.

Which question are you asking, Fordim?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

... to find an appropriate word in the Elvish language which was similar, but it does not mean that the two concepts/beings are the same thing.

Precisely! Well-said, and your post hints at a slight difference ( ) in viewpoints between you and another person nearby. Stick to it!

Saucy, your precise and concise summary of the possibilities hits the nail on the head. I agree completely, though I suspect we aren't coming at the conclusions from the same point of view.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I do think that Tolkien meant Iluvatar to be a picture of the God he worships. The very same Being? Well, yes.

LMP, though we are approaching this question from a similar point of view, we come to opposite conclusions! The question Fordim asked is not whether Tolkien considers Eru and God to be the same, but whether it is my (and your) opinion. I know Tolkien set Middle-earth up to be our Earth in a previous history, but he realized that it was an alternate pre-history. If we take Eru to be identical with the creator God of our earth, then the story of creation (with Adam and Eve being the parents of all living) which is so central to his identity does not fit.

The mythology of Middle-earth is a lovely alternative, taking some variant points of view into consideration (such as making the Valar include elements of both pagan Gods and Judeo/Christian angels), but it cannot fit into Jewish and Christian theology. It is fiction and I enjoy it very much, but I do not attempt to reconcile it with my real life belief.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

And I note that you've refused to vote.

How can I vote when you have not sufficiently explained which question I am answering?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

LMP, though we are approaching this question from a similar point of view, we come to opposite conclusions! The question Fordim asked is not whether Tolkien considers Eru and God to be the same, but whether it is my (and your) opinion. I know Tolkien set Middle-earth up to be our Earth in a previous history, but he realized that it was an alternate pre-history. If we take Eru to be identical with the creator God of our earth, then the story of creation (with Adam and Eve being the parents of all living) which is so central to his identity does not fit.

The mythology of Middle-earth is a lovely alternative, taking some variant points of view into consideration (such as making the Valar include elements of both pagan Gods and Judeo/Christian angels), but it cannot fit into Jewish and Christian theology. It is fiction and I enjoy it very much, but I do not attempt to reconcile it with my real life belief.

My answer remains "yes" - to both aspects of the question: Tolkien meant it, and it is so. The myths are not mutually exclusive, but tell different stories about different peoples. Even if Tolkien did not mean it, it still is so. The Spirit and Truth shine through, and most of us perceive it. We may call it other things because of whatever reasons, but it still is what it is.

Originally Posted by fordim

There's a lot hanging on this question: if you believe that Eru is God, then you are saying that the moral "rules" of M-E are Christian.

Well, yes, since I believe that to say Christian is to say Truthian, because according to my belief, He is the Truth; all Truth originates with Him. Tolkien's Eru shines through as Him. But I still hold that it's an incomplete view, coming from a myth by "people" who knew very little. Still, what is known, rings True.