Middle Earth "afterlife"

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Someone of the Masters in Lore of Tolkien on the site, please help me out here!

Well, if you're done disputing with him, Legolas might help you out.

Originally Posted by Legolas

Elves cannot 'choose mortality.'

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Actually they can.

I believe that Legolas' point was that Elves are not themselves able to choose between mortality and immortality. They are immortal by default. The choice was granted only to a select few (none of whom were of pure Elvish blood), by the grace of Eru Iluvatar.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I know that it's not the afterlife, but according to this Elvish translator, 'Hell' is translated as 'Angband'.

I don't know about Elves, but I seem to remember that when Saruman died, he tried to return to the West, but was denied. I would assume that he was cast into the Void. Ergo, I would make the assumption that the Void is the 'Hell' of Arda and is reserved for the evil Maiar and Valar.

[Farael]

Well, as much as I cannot say that Eru is G'd, I shan't say that there actually IS a heaven or hell. Valinor is probably as close to heaven as it gets in Arda. A perfect land in which nothing ever decays and where the gods (Valar) live. I guess the notion of hell is shown both in evil on earth (Hell being translated to Angband) and the void. We should note that the void is not exactly a place of punishment, besides that whoever is in the void cannot go back to Arda and so all the power and everything the 'voidee' has done in Middle Earth is lost for him.

I guess it is more of a psychological punishment (you can't go back even though you want to) than a fiery hell.

That's my point of view, although I might be mistaken in the notion of hell as I must say I don't believe in it.

[Lalwendë]

Would 'heaven' not be wherever Eru is? In that case, does Eru live within or without the world and heavens that he created? I think that Eru may exist in the Void himself, and if he does then this may be the location of the 'heaven' where Men go when they die. Whether or not it is a tangible place I could not say. Maybe things only have physical presence once they have left the Void, which may explain why it was a suitable place for Melkor to be sent to; he may have been unable to do harm there.

The Void is not a place where solely evil things are banished to, as beings have entered Arda from the Void, e.g. Ungoliant, who is not evil to begin with. Possibly Tom Bombadil (but I won't be opening cans of worms tonight).

Does hell exist in Ea? I'm not so sure that it does. To take the example of the Elves, even the most wicked of Elves are still allowed to enter the Halls of Mandos. They may not be permitted to become incarnate again, but neither are they denied entry to this place. And as an aside, I don't equate Valinor with Heaven, firstly as the Elves simply are not dead, secondly as it reminds me more of lost land of heroes, unreachable by mere mortals.

What happened to Saruman? I think that when he was rejected as his Hroa died, he was simply denied entrance to Valinor, maybe he was even denied by Eru. This would surely be as much Hell to an inhabitant of Ea as anything, denial by Eru himself, being left to find a way in the world without him.

Now as to the Orcs, I think that there is an Orcish equivalent of the Halls of Mandos. The Orcs may have been corrupted or bred from Elves, but surely their essential nature as deathless beings would not have been able to be altered? They could not have been immortal and then be made to be mortal, as surely this 'gift' would be in the hands of Eru alone? That the Witch King threatens Eowyn with 'The Halls of Lamentation' may suggest something of what happens to a slain Orc. Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar, and Sauron possibly most powerful of the Maiar; it could be possible that they could make a mockery of the Halls of Mandos. But unlike the Elves, the Orcs may simply be reborn and sent right back into Middle-earth (would solve the problem of how they are 'bred' at any rate ). It's an idea worth looking at' though most of us would veer towards addressing and studying the workings of the side of Light rather than the workings of Darkness.

Perhaps for Men in Middle-earth there is no Hell at all apart from what they make for themselves or what they are enslaved into. Even those Men who do go over to Sauron's side in the War of the Ring are forgiven by Aragorn, perhaps Eru would also forgive them?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would 'heaven' not be wherever Eru is? In that case, does Eru live within or without the world and heavens that he created? I think that Eru may exist in the Void himself, and if he does then this may be the location of the 'heaven' where Men go when they die. Whether or not it is a tangible place I could not say. Maybe things only have physical presence once they have left the Void, which may explain why it was a suitable place for Melkor to be sent to; he may have been unable to do harm there.

I have allways seen Eru as All Pressent. Meaning that he is not restrictet to one place in particular, but is everywhere at once and therefor all knowing.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have allways seen Eru as All Pressent. Meaning that he is not restrictet to one place in particular, but is everywhere at once and therefor all knowing.

I've considered this one myself, but came to the conclusion that Eru may be more likely to be a 'remote' God, rather than a God who infuses every part of his creation - simply because in the Silmarillion, Eru is seen to 'show' the Ainur what has been created, and they must consciously decide to 'enter' Ea. However, I think it could also be said that Eru is indeed embodied in his own creation; this seems to hang on the nature of the Secret Fire for me - is it the 'root' of life in Ea? If that makes sense.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I've considered this one myself, but came to the conclusion that Eru may be more likely to be a 'remote' God, rather than a God who infuses every part of his creation - simply because in the Silmarillion, Eru is seen to 'show' the Ainur what has been created, and they must consciously decide to 'enter' Ea. However, I think it could also be said that Eru is indeed embodied in his own creation; this seems to hang on the nature of the Secret Fire for me - is it the 'root' of life in Ea? If that makes sense.

I guess that by remote god you mean a god like the one in the new testament who has greatet the world and kind of lean back to see it unfold, opposit to the one in the old testament who directly interfeer with the people of earth.

Even if Eru was this remote god, he could still be pressent with out interfeering. The thing that makes me think that he is not in one place is that I see him as not beeing carnatet.

or do you mean that he has made Arda and has left it to the valar as their playground. A playground where he does not know what is happening, unless Manwë asks for his asistance?