Middle Earth "afterlife" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 12-22-2005, 04:48 PM

Would 'heaven' not be wherever Eru is? In that case, does Eru live within or without the world and heavens that he created? I think that Eru may exist in the Void himself, and if he does then this may be the location of the 'heaven' where Men go when they die. Whether or not it is a tangible place I could not say. Maybe things only have physical presence once they have left the Void, which may explain why it was a suitable place for Melkor to be sent to; he may have been unable to do harm there.

The Void is not a place where solely evil things are banished to, as beings have entered Arda from the Void, e.g. Ungoliant, who is not evil to begin with. Possibly Tom Bombadil (but I won't be opening cans of worms tonight).

Does hell exist in Ea? I'm not so sure that it does. To take the example of the Elves, even the most wicked of Elves are still allowed to enter the Halls of Mandos. They may not be permitted to become incarnate again, but neither are they denied entry to this place. And as an aside, I don't equate Valinor with Heaven, firstly as the Elves simply are not dead, secondly as it reminds me more of lost land of heroes, unreachable by mere mortals.

What happened to Saruman? I think that when he was rejected as his Hroa died, he was simply denied entrance to Valinor, maybe he was even denied by Eru. This would surely be as much Hell to an inhabitant of Ea as anything, denial by Eru himself, being left to find a way in the world without him.

Now as to the Orcs, I think that there is an Orcish equivalent of the Halls of Mandos. The Orcs may have been corrupted or bred from Elves, but surely their essential nature as deathless beings would not have been able to be altered? They could not have been immortal and then be made to be mortal, as surely this 'gift' would be in the hands of Eru alone? That the Witch King threatens Eowyn with 'The Halls of Lamentation' may suggest something of what happens to a slain Orc. Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar, and Sauron possibly most powerful of the Maiar; it could be possible that they could make a mockery of the Halls of Mandos. But unlike the Elves, the Orcs may simply be reborn and sent right back into Middle-earth (would solve the problem of how they are 'bred' at any rate

). It's an idea worth looking at' though most of us would veer towards addressing and studying the workings of the side of Light rather than the workings of Darkness.

Perhaps for Men in Middle-earth there is no Hell at all apart from what they make for themselves or what they are enslaved into. Even those Men who do go over to Sauron's side in the War of the Ring are forgiven by Aragorn, perhaps Eru would also forgive them?

Rune Son of Bjarne · 12-22-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would 'heaven' not be wherever Eru is? In that case, does Eru live within or without the world and heavens that he created? I think that Eru may exist in the Void himself, and if he does then this may be the location of the 'heaven' where Men go when they die. Whether or not it is a tangible place I could not say. Maybe things only have physical presence once they have left the Void, which may explain why it was a suitable place for Melkor to be sent to; he may have been unable to do harm there.

I have allways seen Eru as All Pressent. Meaning that he is not restrictet to one place in particular, but is everywhere at once and therefor all knowing.

Lalwendë · 12-22-2005, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have allways seen Eru as All Pressent. Meaning that he is not restrictet to one place in particular, but is everywhere at once and therefor all knowing.

I've considered this one myself, but came to the conclusion that Eru may be more likely to be a 'remote' God, rather than a God who infuses every part of his creation - simply because in the Silmarillion, Eru is seen to 'show' the Ainur what has been created, and they must consciously decide to 'enter' Ea. However, I think it could also be said that Eru is indeed embodied in his own creation; this seems to hang on the nature of the Secret Fire for me - is it the 'root' of life in Ea? If that makes sense.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 12-22-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I've considered this one myself, but came to the conclusion that Eru may be more likely to be a 'remote' God, rather than a God who infuses every part of his creation - simply because in the Silmarillion, Eru is seen to 'show' the Ainur what has been created, and they must consciously decide to 'enter' Ea. However, I think it could also be said that Eru is indeed embodied in his own creation; this seems to hang on the nature of the Secret Fire for me - is it the 'root' of life in Ea? If that makes sense.

I guess that by remote god you mean a god like the one in the new testament who has greatet the world and kind of lean back to see it unfold, opposit to the one in the old testament who directly interfeer with the people of earth.

Even if Eru was this remote god, he could still be pressent with out interfeering. The thing that makes me think that he is not in one place is that I see him as not beeing carnatet.

or do you mean that he has made Arda and has left it to the valar as their playground. A playground where he does not know what is happening, unless Manwë asks for his asistance?

Elu Ancalime · 12-22-2005, 06:42 PM

Mandos is not seen as heaven or hell. Like Hades in Greek mythology, there is no 'good or bad' as long as you recognize the gods, so there is no good or bad place to go.
And for the 'if an orc dies', what happens when a tree dies? Orcs are not considered for there own actions, 'free will' may be debatable in this, as they have a choice to kill their buddy or not, but they do not have a choice between good and evil. Orcs should be considered as animals, and not because of their ferocity, but because they are not Children. Dwarves for instance have no proof of what happens to them excpt: The theory of them going back the ground which they sprung from,' which we know they have wemon like every other normal race, and that they think they have a specail place in Mandos for when they help Aule in the rebuilding of Arda. Since neither Aule, Mandos, or Eru said anything of the dwarves afterlife, and they said nothing about Ents or cows anyway, we make the 'afterlife' connection that dwarves are not Children. (We know that anyway) The dwarves are special ina way that they have the Flame Imperishable. I dont see how orcs with the lack of the Flame would have any afterlife to go to, since without the Flame you can not be considered for your well being and actions unto others.
Since we can say nothing about Men's life after death, other than it is good because Eru granted them it, we can not say anything about how a mans life affectes his 'afterlife'.
So what? What i say is this: Without the Flame Imperishable, there is no afterlife for that race because it would be pointless. Wouldnt all orcs go to ha 'hell'? They cant help it because they have no control. And wouldnt all plants go to a heaven? No.
________
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the guy who be short · 12-23-2005, 08:41 AM

Orcs being a mutilated form of Elves given, they do possess the Flame Imperishable, meaning that they must experience some sort of afterlife. Whether they would go to Mandos or not is debatable. One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing? A merciful Eru would surely simply destroy them, though we are now venturing into personal opinion.

As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed.

One of the things that appeals to me a lot in LotR is the mystery surrounding the afterlife. However much we debate, that's not going to be solved.

Gothmog · 12-23-2005, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed.

Are the Eagles really Maiar of Valinor? They are "spirits from afar" sent by Eru to inhabit the creations of Manwe (and Yavanna: the Ents). Look at the quote provided in
this post concerning a different topic... Now, if the spirits are from some place outside the world (that's the way I interpret the text but i might be wrong), why would they then go to Valinor, why not leave the world and go back to wherever they came from?

And the Mearas, are they Maiar? I can't remember reading that anywhere, but as with everything else there's a possibility that I'm wrong...

Just to clear things up: I'm not questioning if Maiar with origin in Valinor go there when they're body dies, but rather the origin of spirits in for example Eagles, Ents and Mearas.

littlemanpoet · 12-27-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing?

This could be said of many humans in Middle Earth, as well as many in our own time. But existence is not the evil the orcs do; that is a gift they abuse. Their inability to repent is akin to their inability to see their own evil as evil.

12-22-2005, 04:48 PM	#1
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Would 'heaven' not be wherever Eru is? In that case, does Eru live within or without the world and heavens that he created? I think that Eru may exist in the Void himself, and if he does then this may be the location of the 'heaven' where Men go when they die. Whether or not it is a tangible place I could not say. Maybe things only have physical presence once they have left the Void, which may explain why it was a suitable place for Melkor to be sent to; he may have been unable to do harm there. The Void is not a place where solely evil things are banished to, as beings have entered Arda from the Void, e.g. Ungoliant, who is not evil to begin with. Possibly Tom Bombadil (but I won't be opening cans of worms tonight). Does hell exist in Ea? I'm not so sure that it does. To take the example of the Elves, even the most wicked of Elves are still allowed to enter the Halls of Mandos. They may not be permitted to become incarnate again, but neither are they denied entry to this place. And as an aside, I don't equate Valinor with Heaven, firstly as the Elves simply are not dead, secondly as it reminds me more of lost land of heroes, unreachable by mere mortals. What happened to Saruman? I think that when he was rejected as his Hroa died, he was simply denied entrance to Valinor, maybe he was even denied by Eru. This would surely be as much Hell to an inhabitant of Ea as anything, denial by Eru himself, being left to find a way in the world without him. Now as to the Orcs, I think that there is an Orcish equivalent of the Halls of Mandos. The Orcs may have been corrupted or bred from Elves, but surely their essential nature as deathless beings would not have been able to be altered? They could not have been immortal and then be made to be mortal, as surely this 'gift' would be in the hands of Eru alone? That the Witch King threatens Eowyn with 'The Halls of Lamentation' may suggest something of what happens to a slain Orc. Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar, and Sauron possibly most powerful of the Maiar; it could be possible that they could make a mockery of the Halls of Mandos. But unlike the Elves, the Orcs may simply be reborn and sent right back into Middle-earth (would solve the problem of how they are 'bred' at any rate ). It's an idea worth looking at' though most of us would veer towards addressing and studying the workings of the side of Light rather than the workings of Darkness. Perhaps for Men in Middle-earth there is no Hell at all apart from what they make for themselves or what they are enslaved into. Even those Men who do go over to Sauron's side in the War of the Ring are forgiven by Aragorn, perhaps Eru would also forgive them? __________________ Gordon's alive!

12-22-2005, 06:42 PM	#5
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	Mandos is not seen as heaven or hell. Like Hades in Greek mythology, there is no 'good or bad' as long as you recognize the gods, so there is no good or bad place to go. And for the 'if an orc dies', what happens when a tree dies? Orcs are not considered for there own actions, 'free will' may be debatable in this, as they have a choice to kill their buddy or not, but they do not have a choice between good and evil. Orcs should be considered as animals, and not because of their ferocity, but because they are not Children. Dwarves for instance have no proof of what happens to them excpt: The theory of them going back the ground which they sprung from,' which we know they have wemon like every other normal race, and that they think they have a specail place in Mandos for when they help Aule in the rebuilding of Arda. Since neither Aule, Mandos, or Eru said anything of the dwarves afterlife, and they said nothing about Ents or cows anyway, we make the 'afterlife' connection that dwarves are not Children. (We know that anyway) The dwarves are special ina way that they have the Flame Imperishable. I dont see how orcs with the lack of the Flame would have any afterlife to go to, since without the Flame you can not be considered for your well being and actions unto others. Since we can say nothing about Men's life after death, other than it is good because Eru granted them it, we can not say anything about how a mans life affectes his 'afterlife'. So what? What i say is this: Without the Flame Imperishable, there is no afterlife for that race because it would be pointless. Wouldnt all orcs go to ha 'hell'? They cant help it because they have no control. And wouldnt all plants go to a heaven? No. ________ COLORADO DISPENSARIES Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 10:26 PM.

12-23-2005, 08:41 AM	#6
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Orcs being a mutilated form of Elves given, they do possess the Flame Imperishable, meaning that they must experience some sort of afterlife. Whether they would go to Mandos or not is debatable. One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing? A merciful Eru would surely simply destroy them, though we are now venturing into personal opinion. As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed. One of the things that appeals to me a lot in LotR is the mystery surrounding the afterlife. However much we debate, that's not going to be solved.