Middle Earth "afterlife"

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would 'heaven' not be wherever Eru is? In that case, does Eru live within or without the world and heavens that he created? I think that Eru may exist in the Void himself, and if he does then this may be the location of the 'heaven' where Men go when they die. Whether or not it is a tangible place I could not say. Maybe things only have physical presence once they have left the Void, which may explain why it was a suitable place for Melkor to be sent to; he may have been unable to do harm there.

I have allways seen Eru as All Pressent. Meaning that he is not restrictet to one place in particular, but is everywhere at once and therefor all knowing.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I have allways seen Eru as All Pressent. Meaning that he is not restrictet to one place in particular, but is everywhere at once and therefor all knowing.

I've considered this one myself, but came to the conclusion that Eru may be more likely to be a 'remote' God, rather than a God who infuses every part of his creation - simply because in the Silmarillion, Eru is seen to 'show' the Ainur what has been created, and they must consciously decide to 'enter' Ea. However, I think it could also be said that Eru is indeed embodied in his own creation; this seems to hang on the nature of the Secret Fire for me - is it the 'root' of life in Ea? If that makes sense.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I've considered this one myself, but came to the conclusion that Eru may be more likely to be a 'remote' God, rather than a God who infuses every part of his creation - simply because in the Silmarillion, Eru is seen to 'show' the Ainur what has been created, and they must consciously decide to 'enter' Ea. However, I think it could also be said that Eru is indeed embodied in his own creation; this seems to hang on the nature of the Secret Fire for me - is it the 'root' of life in Ea? If that makes sense.

I guess that by remote god you mean a god like the one in the new testament who has greatet the world and kind of lean back to see it unfold, opposit to the one in the old testament who directly interfeer with the people of earth.

Even if Eru was this remote god, he could still be pressent with out interfeering. The thing that makes me think that he is not in one place is that I see him as not beeing carnatet.

or do you mean that he has made Arda and has left it to the valar as their playground. A playground where he does not know what is happening, unless Manwë asks for his asistance?

[Elu Ancalime]

Mandos is not seen as heaven or hell. Like Hades in Greek mythology, there is no 'good or bad' as long as you recognize the gods, so there is no good or bad place to go.
And for the 'if an orc dies', what happens when a tree dies? Orcs are not considered for there own actions, 'free will' may be debatable in this, as they have a choice to kill their buddy or not, but they do not have a choice between good and evil. Orcs should be considered as animals, and not because of their ferocity, but because they are not Children. Dwarves for instance have no proof of what happens to them excpt: The theory of them going back the ground which they sprung from,' which we know they have wemon like every other normal race, and that they think they have a specail place in Mandos for when they help Aule in the rebuilding of Arda. Since neither Aule, Mandos, or Eru said anything of the dwarves afterlife, and they said nothing about Ents or cows anyway, we make the 'afterlife' connection that dwarves are not Children. (We know that anyway) The dwarves are special ina way that they have the Flame Imperishable. I dont see how orcs with the lack of the Flame would have any afterlife to go to, since without the Flame you can not be considered for your well being and actions unto others.
Since we can say nothing about Men's life after death, other than it is good because Eru granted them it, we can not say anything about how a mans life affectes his 'afterlife'.
So what? What i say is this: Without the Flame Imperishable, there is no afterlife for that race because it would be pointless. Wouldnt all orcs go to ha 'hell'? They cant help it because they have no control. And wouldnt all plants go to a heaven? No.
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COLORADO DISPENSARIES

[the guy who be short]

Orcs being a mutilated form of Elves given, they do possess the Flame Imperishable, meaning that they must experience some sort of afterlife. Whether they would go to Mandos or not is debatable. One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing? A merciful Eru would surely simply destroy them, though we are now venturing into personal opinion.

As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed.

One of the things that appeals to me a lot in LotR is the mystery surrounding the afterlife. However much we debate, that's not going to be solved.

[Gothmog]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

As for the Eagles, Mearas, etc, they are inhabited by Maiar and would simply return to Valinor if the Hroa were killed.

Are the Eagles really Maiar of Valinor? They are "spirits from afar" sent by Eru to inhabit the creations of Manwe (and Yavanna: the Ents). Look at the quote provided in
this post concerning a different topic... Now, if the spirits are from some place outside the world (that's the way I interpret the text but i might be wrong), why would they then go to Valinor, why not leave the world and go back to wherever they came from?

And the Mearas, are they Maiar? I can't remember reading that anywhere, but as with everything else there's a possibility that I'm wrong...

Just to clear things up: I'm not questioning if Maiar with origin in Valinor go there when they're body dies, but rather the origin of spirits in for example Eagles, Ents and Mearas.

[Legolas]

Actually they can. Take Luthien for example!

Er...the only example?

Luthien did not "give up" her immortality. She died. She was permitted to come back, and given a choice between immortality and mortality because of her great deeds. Not because she was an elf.

Elros and Arwen are half-elves. Half-elves are mortal by default - Manwe had previously made a decree that any being with any mortal blood was mortal. Elrond and Elros were granted a special choice because of, once again, the great deads of their parents, Earendil and Elwin.

Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir were given the choice again because Elrond (half-elf) wed Celebrian (an elf), thereby renewing their 'elvish' strain. After their generation, their family's choice would be finished.

Special choices were granted to these, and these alone.

It is easy to be fooled though, given the way the movie potrays the situation and the way Lord of the Rings never really spells out the issue.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

One of the strongest criticisms of Tolkien is the clear distinction between good and evil, and the inability of the orcs to repent. Born evil, would they be destined to punishment simply for existing?

This could be said of many humans in Middle Earth, as well as many in our own time. But existence is not the evil the orcs do; that is a gift they abuse. Their inability to repent is akin to their inability to see their own evil as evil.

[Legolas]

I still hold that Luthien's single, exceptional case doesn't warrant mentioning that - no more than Tuor's conversion in the oppisite direction. It's still misleading that one would say 'elves can sometimes choose mortality' - with the direct action of Eru, any beings' fundamental kind can be changed. You're right though, we can leave it at that.

Dior and his children were definitely half-elves. This is part of the significance of Elwing and Earendil's union, and their family. Dior, Elured, and Elurin were slain in Ruin of Doriath, leaving Elwing as the only descendent of Luthien and Beren. Elwing and Earendil were both half-elven, and given a choice after their great contributions in the War of Wrath, Elwing chose to be an elf, and Earendil followed as he did not want them to be separated.

With the deaths of Dior and his sons, Elwing and Earendil represented to the two remaining strains of elf + man, and by joining, these two special cases were narrowed down to one lineage which directly allowed Numenor to happen, and eventually Elendil and Gondor, and finally Aragorn who was able to hold off the attack of Sauron and usher in the 'Age of Man.'

Tolkien mentions this intentional significance (and the first point as well) in Letter #153.

Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.