The Hobbit - Chapter 01 - An Unexpected Party

[Alchisiel]

What a coincidence that a chapter by chapter read of The Hobbit has just started as I have just started reading it myself. Instead of getting into whether or not The Hobbit should be included in the Legendarium I will answer Estelyn's questions in her first post.

When did you first read The Hobbit? How did it affect you and what did it mean to you?

I first read The Hobbit roughly three years ago I'm afraid. I was 29 years old. I wasn't even aware that the books existed until The Fellowship of the Ring movie came out. I learned that the books existed when a co-worker of mine told me about them. Of course I went out right away and bought The Hobbit and began to read becoming quite hooked on Middle Earth. Having read it around the time of September 11th, it became the epitome of a good vs. evil story to me.

Bits and pieces of information are scattered throughout this chapter, on Dwarves, dragons, the Necromancer, and the Wizard Gandalf. Which do you find most interesting or helpful?

The information about the dwarves and dragons were important to the story but it was the information about Gandalf's adventures and the pieces of information about the Necromancer that left me wanting to find out more. I think Tolkien does this intentionally and does this very well. I'm even going to go out on a limb and compare it to the television show Lost. Every week the show answers questions you want to know but it also leaves you with more questions at the same time. Tolkien does this as well, such as Tom Bombadil, Belladonna Took and her sisters, the Old Took, etc.

[Thinlómien]

As many others here, I've fallen in love with the dwarves' song. It just sounds so beautiful. I first became familiar with it in Finnish, and it's one of the best poem/song translations in Finnish. I remember listening to my father reading the poem aloud and how magical it sounded. I could almost hear the chilly wind on the mountains and see the dark caves. The song full of promise of distant lands and places, yet dangerous. I think that it , better than any other thing said by anyone gives the feeling of a becoming adventure.

Bilbo's behaviour in the first chapter has always amused me, I don't know why. I pity him. He being little and stupid and fearful, but trying to play an expert. I think Gandalf was a bit rude to do him so, present him as a master burglar. I can imagine him laughing to his beard and watching Bilbo struggle with his new role. Gandalf isn't cruel, but his somewhat malicious.

As he lay in bed he could hear Thorin humming to himself in the best bedroom next to him: Far over misty mountains cold...

Somehow this always makes me smile. It's funny. I can imagine nervous Bilbo, trying to get sleep with wild thoughts running in his head, and Thorin in the neighbouring room humming. Maybe it's the humming dwarf that has always amused me.

I like Gandalf in this chapter. His the man here. He knows the most, he keeps the secret. He's not as serious with the journey as the dwarves are (=he doesn't have personal feelings mixed up) and he isn't as nervous as Bilbo. He controls the situation. (In fact, he's the same kind of character to the end.)

[Essex]

re Davem's point

Of course, Bilbo's story is referred to in LotR (& The Quest of Erebor), so it is part of the Legendarium. This version of it, however, should be kept to one side as a children's story, a kind of 'Fantasia' on Middle-earth, an introduction if you like - imo, of course.

Is this because you see the Hobbit as a Children's book and the LOTR as not one? I see the LOTR as a Children's book as well as the Hobbit. Haven't most of us here read it first when we were kids? To be fair, the Hobbit is written in a more 'childish' style - but I also see LOTR as a Children's tale - but one so good that we take it into our adult world and never let go of it........

[davem]

Originally Posted by Essex

re Davem's point Is this because you see the Hobbit as a Children's book and the LOTR as not one? I see the LOTR as a Children's book as well as the Hobbit. Haven't most of us here read it first when we were kids? To be fair, the Hobbit is written in a more 'childish' style - but I also see LOTR as a Children's tale - but one so good that we take it into our adult world and never let go of it........

Actually, I don't think of LotR as a 'children's' book - I don't think of TH as a 'children's' story either. The story of TH is a story & the only distinction I make is between good stories & bad stories. TH is a good story.

The reason I wouldn't include it in the Legendarium is that it was not written to be part of it, it was written a an entertainment for his children first & foremost - that doesn't make a 'children's' story, it merely means it was written in what Tolkien thought was a style they would like.

TH is too 'free', too 'unbound' by the 'logical' limits & restrictions set on the Legendarium by Tolkien. It isn't just whimsical (which BoLT is also) but it is also at times patronising (a fault which Tolkien himself acknowledged).

The Elves & Trolls of TH work very well in the self contained world of TH, but viewed in the light of the Eldar & Olog Hai of the Legendarium proper they stick out like a sore thumb.

Anyway, I've said all this before so I'll stop here before Formendacil pops up to chastise me again (even though both last time & this I was responding to specific points directed at me by other posters

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, I don't think of LotR as a 'children's' book - I don't think of TH as a 'children's' story either. The story of TH is a story & the only distinction I make is between good stories & bad stories. TH is a good story.

The reason I wouldn't include it in the Legendarium is that it was not written to be part of it, it was written a an entertainment for his children first & foremost - that doesn't make a 'children's' story, it merely means it was written in what Tolkien thought was a style they would like.

TH is too 'free', too 'unbound' by the 'logical' limits & restrictions set on the Legendarium by Tolkien. It isn't just whimsical (which BoLT is also) but it is also at times patronising (a fault which Tolkien himself acknowledged).

The Elves & Trolls of TH work very well in the self contained world of TH, but viewed in the light of the Eldar & Olog Hai of the Legendarium proper they stick out like a sore thumb.

Sorry but I've just got to argue...again...

I don't think it matters whether or not the original intention was that The Hobbit be part of the Legendarium or not, because it now is a part of the Legendarium. I think this is a case of the Reader being more important than the Author.

I also have to wonder what the 'Legendarium' actually is, as if we are going to be strict about it and go down the Authorial intention route, then LotR is not even a part of it, as it was begun as a follow-up to The Hobbit. In that respect only the Silmarillion is part of the Legendarium. I know davem will argue that LotR rapidly became part of the Legendarium during the process of writing it, as Tolkien included more and more from his Silmarillion writings, but he also did this with The Hobbit, amending the work to include more of that world.

He may not have begun with the intention of it being a part of his 'Legendarium' but that is irrelevant as he made it a part of it, and the readers then went on to accept it as part of it.

As such it serves as the perfect beginning to Tolkien's work, and includes much that helps us to better appreciate the world of LotR e.g. more knowledge of Hobbits, the character of Gollum, and some time spent with Dwarves, who are in comparison quite sidelined in LotR. I often wonder whether it affects our reading if we don't begin with The Hobbit, but that may be one of those questions we will never be able to answer as once we have begun with either TH or LotR, we don;t know what it would have been like otherwise.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Dragging this up again.....

I have a question that I hope someone can answer as it's not the kind of thing that you can "google". I'm curious about Bilbo's "porter" that he served to some of the dwarves.

I had never even heard of porter before and have no idea what it takes like. Is it something like Guiness stout? Do people still drink this at the pubs? And what brands are there, in case I decide I want to try this? Is there something about porter that would make it especially appealing to dwarves?


When I looked it up online, the best I could come up with is this:

porter: (English) London style brew that became practically extinct, but is making a comeback. Originally made to satisfy the demand for a 50/50 mix of ale and stout, porter's dark brown hue comes from roasting the barley before the brewing process begins. A lighter-bodied companion to the stout, it possesses a less pronounced hop flavor than ale, and is a heavier brew than most, with just a hint of sweetness.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I'd better hop to comments on the first chapter if I have any hopes of catching up with TH discussion. I don't have any long dissertations to offer, nor any knowledge about porter--sorry, Child--but simply a few observations about reading the book now.

I'm not much interested in the 'exclude it from the Legendarium' debate because I'm far more interested in just how Tolkien got there, so to speak. And when I read TH now I am intrigued by how much belongs to traditional elements of fairie--dragons, fairy wives, magic. I have the feeling that I can almost see the process of how Tolkien created his own Middle-earth out of his earlier reading (and his children's own reading).

Originally Posted by Bilbo speaking

Not the wandering wizard that gave Old Took a pair of magic diamond studs that fastened themselves and never came undone till ordered? Not the fellow who used to tell such wonderful tales at parties, about dragons and goblins and giants and the rescue of princesss and the unexpected luck of widows' sons?

And I have to say that I love the style of that famous first sentence, the all-important subject pushed back to the very end by double prepositional phrases and the pattern-marker 'there.'

About it's nature as a children's story, I note that it lacks explicit detail, as children's knowledge often does.

After that there were no dwarves left alive inside, and he took all their wealth for himself.

I don't think we've ever had a proper discussion about Tolkien's brand of humour, not just in TH but elsewhere, but certainly I think it would be worth, as we read through TH trying to consider just what comprised Tolkien's funny bone, for he definitely had one. The names in particular depend upon linguistic play, mixing vowels and consonants (which linguists call, I think, 'minimal pairs.') It's all this Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, and Gloin, and etc. This is actually quite a clever way to draw his children's attention to language. And I don't think it simply childish word play. After all, the founding saint of Glasgow is still called affectionately by the denizens of that city, St. Mungo. When I learnt that, Frodo, Bilbo and company seemed so much more interesting linguistically.

And the last observation I have concerns the songs. Even here in a children's story we have Tolkien recognising the role of music in sparking the imagination--something he will draw out in his depiction of Rivendell.

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick. He looked out the window. The stars were out in the dark sky above the trees. He thought of the jewels of the dwarves shining in the dark caverns. Suddenly in the wood beyond The Water a flame leapt up--probably somebody lighting a wood-fire--and he thought of plundering dragons settlingon his quiet HIll and kinglind it all to flames. He shuddered; and very quickly he was plain Mr Baggins of Bag-End, Under-Hill, again.

It's all there, inchoate, germinal, ready to be gently simmering in the cauldron of story.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

The reason I wouldn't include it in the Legendarium is that it was not written to be part of it, it was written a an entertainment for his children first & foremost - that doesn't make a 'children's' story, it merely means it was written in what Tolkien thought was a style they would like.

I believe it is a children story which became part of the legendarium :

Originally Posted by Letter #25

My tale is not consciously based on any other book - save one, and that is unpublished: the 'Silmarillion', a history of the Elves, to which frequent allusion is made.

Originally Posted by Letter #163

The Hobbit was originally quite unconnected, though it inevitably got drawn in to the circumference of the greater construction; and in the event modified it. It was unhappily really meant, as far as I was conscious, as a 'children's story', and as I had not learned sense then, and my children were not quite old enough to correct me, it has some of the sillinesses of manner caught unthinkingly from the kind of stuff I had had served to me, as Chaucer may catch a minstrel tag.

[Calan]

I find I must second the catching up to keep up, here - this is the one I wanted to see, at any rate! I first read The Hobbit in perhaps fifth grade, and didn't think much of it at the time other than 'fun story'. On rereading the book a year or two later though, I was well and hooked; not to mention going back to it time and again as I read the trilogy proper. For reference, my copy is the black-covered Ballantine paperback.

As to the first chapter here, I'll agree that it's one of the more humorous in the book, both in reading and in practice - I've suckered more than one person into the 'good morning' exchange.

Dwarf-songs - Over the Misty Mountains is undoubtedly the song I remember the most from the book on the whole. It's a clean way to give a good deal of backstory to what's going on, and beautiful besides - the version in the BBC radio adaptation strikes meas very much like it 'really' would have sounded like.

Gandalf - I found (and find) no trouble in seeing Gandalf as a wizard, despite the most 'magical' thing he does in this chapter being the tricks with smoke-rings. Most of the time (and in the Trilogy proper as well), his 'magic' is in making things work out!

I find I must second most of what's already been quoted, particularly the last presented by Estelyn and Bethberry. A few more than I find good, though...

With that the hobbit turned and scuttled inside his round green door, and shut it as quickly as he dared, not to seem rude. Wizards after all are wizards.

Good advice.

"We like the dark," said the dwarves. "Dark for dark business! There are many hours before dawn."

I've been in that frame of mind many times.

And finally: intended it may be, but I don't believe that TH comes off as purely a children's story. There are subtleties to be found as we've already begun to do, and certainly the vocabulary is past what I would call childish. It's certainly -light- reading in comparison to the rest of the milieu , but that's not a bad thing.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio

Thanks a lot for the information and the links on porter. We will have to try out some ourselves to see if it is as excellent as suggested.

I have learned something interesting from the historical data you provided. We talk a lot about the "anachronisms" in the Shire. It appears that porter is actually an anachronism of sorts. It is not an "ancient" drink but was first brewed in 1722, according to the information on the website.

Again, thanks much.

[Thinlómien]

I see the LOTR as a Children's book as well as the Hobbit.

I disagree. I would say that it has no age limits. (What a cliché.)

The way of telling the story make tH and LotR different. The Hobbit is told lightly and quite plainly. In LotR the text includes lots of description and the events and some of the characters are much darker. The atmosphere is very different.

How is LotR children's book, Essex? The fact(?) that most of us have read it first as children doesn't make it a children's book. Have you any better arguments?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While TH can be read as a children's book
or adult's there are some arguments for
it as a children's book.

1.)JRRT actually created it as one of the stories
he told his children (like Roverandom).

2.)t works very well as a read aloud book to children
(I did so to a fourth grade class with various students
taking parts (I got to be the narrator- and Gandalf,after all, I had to buy multiple copies for the class to read) . Btw, three boys got to be
bad guys and were repeatedly killed (trolls, spiders,
goblins, etc.). There were some great death scenes.

3.)And, as noted above, it was originally not in
the legendarium (hence the more comic dwarves).

[Alchisiel]

I just have to put my two cents in-that's what my opinion is probably worth. I'll keep it short and sweet.

I've always thought TH was set in a happier time-the One ring was thought lost, no one knew Sauron had "resurfaced, " there was no mention of the elves going into the West. I think if you look at it that way it does belong in the Ledendarium as the way Middle Earth was before the finding of the Ring.

Just my thoughts.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

How is LotR children's book, Essex? The fact(?) that most of us have read it first as children doesn't make it a children's book. Have you any better arguments?

Errrr, I think you have answered your own queation there.

most of us have read it first as children

What other evidence could be as daming as this????!!!!!

[Lhunardawen]

Like those before me I'll be skipping out on the TH-as-part-of-the-Legendarium debate. After all, the main reason I'm participating in this CbC is to help me appreciate the book itself more, not so much as to acknowledge its place in the Legendarium. I'll have to admit that I've spent more than a year in the Downs without reading The Hobbit - and so to answer half of Lalwendë's question, I don't think that not reading TH before LotR accounted for much of a difference. Well, except of course that one is bound to think that Bilbo might seem a bit overrated in LotR without having read what he had been through in TH. Yep, that's me.

Two more things I have to admit about not liking TH much is that one, I never really appreciated Dwarves fully. *ducks from Kuruharan's projectiles* And two, I find the lack of female characters here most disappointing. You see, one of my gauges for determining a good read is that I have to be able to relate with the characters somehow. The first time I finished reading TH there was nothing like that all...perhaps because before then I've already met and related with Eowyn.

Which is the exact point of why I'm determined to follow through the discussions as best I could as I read the book again; I'm hoping that this time around I'll find lovable things in TH that I didn't notice before...with your help, my dear Downers.

[/rambling]

So this time around, from the very beginning I tried to place my feet inside Bilbo's shoes...not that he wore any. Pathetic comic attempts aside, I felt terribly annoyed and harassed for him. That leads me to think deeper and consider why in the world Gandalf could have chosen Bilbo instead of some other hobbit...and of course Bilbo's Tookish bloodline sprang to mind. I wonder if Gandalf expected Bilbo to stick to his alleged burglary for whatever reason, or if he took a gamble and crossed his fingers and hoped that Bilbo wouldn't decline. But we see later on in the chapter that Gandalf took the matters into his own intimidatingly large hands when things started to get out of hand (begging your pardon), that is when Gloin started to question Bilbo if he really is what he claimed to be (or more accurately, what Gandalf claimed for him to be). Since I will be reading the book as if I have never read it before (which might as well have been the case as I vaguely remember anything from it), I'll be looking out for the answer to this as I plod on.

My view of the Dwarves - which had been rather dismal so far, considering how they seemed to be oblivious to Bilbo's situation - began to lighten up with their first song. Not only was I relieved to find them finally helping with something, the song itself was also very amusing, particularly the fact that they were able to discern part of Bilbo's personality despite having just met him.

What I found most odd here is that in spite of the seriousness of the matter in their hands later that evening (especially with Thorin speaking), I had a bit of difficulty considering it so. Perhaps the initial cheery atmosphere carried on for me throughout the chapter, and whether that is a good thing or bad I cannot tell.

Quite needless to say I had fits of laughter as I read through this chapter (which were usually accompanied by weird stares from people around me...hehe), and for the most part Bilbo was responsible for them. And the origin of Golf...that was just crazy.

P. S. Esty, if I'm not mistaken Nilp came out with an RPG idea on the love story between Belladonna Took and Bungo Baggins before. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Alphaelin]

I'm so glad to be able to join a C-b-C discussion *before* the halfway point in the book is reached

I'll try to respond to Esty's introductory post without boring anyone here who has already read my comments about TH on other threads. I've just realized one interesting thing: I read the book for myself for the first time after I read LOTR! My first time through the book was having it read to me in school, which was enjoyable, but the emphasis was not the same as when I read it myself.

TH was my introduction to Middle Earth: Everything I have come to love about Tolkien's writing I owe to this book, for it showed me my first glimpses of Dwarves, Rivendell, Elrond, Gondolin, the Ring, wizards, Elves, goblins and dragons. For that reason alone, I have continued to read it once every couple of years in hommage to the Middle Earth vistas it has led me to. Certainly it is lighter and yes, a bit sillier than the rest of the Legendarium, but for me that is a pleasant break from some of the heavier subjects JRRT wrote about. I do understand that not everyone finds this appealing, but then my family and I are a silly people.

I do know that when reading it for myself, Far over the Misty Mountains Cold and its accompanying paragraph is one of my favorite passages in this chapter. I love the strong rythm of the song itself -- in fact I usually chant it out loud just for the pleasure of hearing the words.

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick.

The description of Bilbo's response is very interesting: suddenly the idea of passion is introduced into his calm, orderly mind-set -- and he is attracted by it. We see the beginnings of Bilbo's journey here, too. Not just the physical journey to the mountain and back, but the journey away from a safe, settled existence toward danger and knowledge of the world beyond the Shire and Bilbo's awakening to his own hidden abilities.