Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Defeats nobody major at all in the entire book but is later able to break the staff of Gandalf the White?? (film)

Is defeated by a hobbit & a woman (albeit with luck).

The point is, lets not forget that the WK is made to look inferior as an opponent also!!

Oh dear, here we go again!!!!

In both Book and Film, the Witch King in his last form is far mightier and Superior to his 'former' self - Tolkien has mentioned this in his Letters, and Jackson mentions that they had to 'up' the power of the WK as they needed a 'baddie' to cocentrate on in this movie - either that or have Sauron appear at the Black Gate. Now THAT would have caused mass hysteria by a lot of Tolkien fans!

So therefore, Jackson was following Tolkien's lead in 'powering up' the WK.

I have explained here and in other threads, and I put it to you now that the Staff is a symbolic token that a Wizard carries, and at most a conduit of his power - Remember Gandalf broke Saurman's staff both in move and book with his Voice. Not a blast from his Staff. One of the only places in the book I can see Gandalf use his staff is to light a fire! (oh and to light the way in Moria!)

Merry and Eowyn. Luck???? No way! The Witch King was defeated by a blade of Weseternesse that was designed with possibly that exact purpose in mind, and wielded by the courageous hand of a halfling. Eowyn then gallantly killed the Witch King after the spell holding his sinews to his will were unknit by Merry.

But I do understand that the WK/Gandalf scene is different in that Gandalf's staff is broken, and thath he lies on the floor. But do we really know what would have happened if the two DID fight? Remember Gandalf was in a body that could be inflicted by wounds exactly as a normal man - he could die as easily as a man could. And (and I think I'm in the minority here) - from the very first time I read the book, I always wondered how much of a Bluff Gandalf's words to the WK were.............did he know himself whether he could defeat the WK or not?

But the end of this scene in both book and movie is exactly the same. Rohan have arrived in the nick of time to Save the Day. And Jackson ramps up the tension by having Gandalf on the floor to show the Movie world this.

Originally Posted by Essex

Oh dear, here we go again!!!!

In both Book and Film, the Witch King in his last form is far mightier and Superior to his 'former' self - Tolkien has mentioned this in his Letters, and Jackson mentions that they had to 'up' the power of the WK as they needed a 'baddie' to cocentrate on in this movie - either that or have Sauron appear at the Black Gate. Now THAT would have caused mass hysteria by a lot of Tolkien fans!

So therefore, Jackson was following Tolkien's lead in 'powering up' the WK.

I have explained here and in other threads, and I put it to you now that the Staff is a symbolic token that a Wizard carries, and at most a conduit of his power - Remember Gandalf broke Saurman's staff both in move and book with his Voice. Not a blast from his Staff. One of the only places in the book I can see Gandalf use his staff is to light a fire! (oh and to light the way in Moria!)

Merry and Eowyn. Luck???? No way! The Witch King was defeated by a blade of Weseternesse that was designed with possibly that exact purpose in mind, and wielded by the courageous hand of a halfling. Eowyn then gallantly killed the Witch King after the spell holding his sinews to his will were unknit by Merry.

But I do understand that the WK/Gandalf scene is different in that Gandalf's staff is broken, and thath he lies on the floor. But do we really know what would have happened if the two DID fight? Remember Gandalf was in a body that could be inflicted by wounds exactly as a normal man - he could die as easily as a man could. And (and I think I'm in the minority here) - from the very first time I read the book, I always wondered how much of a Bluff Gandalf's words to the WK were.............did he know himself whether he could defeat the WK or not?

But the end of this scene in both book and movie is exactly the same. Rohan have arrived in the nick of time to Save the Day. And Jackson ramps up the tension by having Gandalf on the floor to show the Movie world this.

Don't forget that Gandalf the White was more powerful than when Grey! And while Grey he defeated the greatest foe that walked ME after Sauron in the form of the Balrog of Morgoth! This is evidence enough that Gandalf is a truly dangerous enemy when challenged to the death. Was the WK so upgraded in power that he was even on the same level as a Balrog?? I think not.

Gandalf also claimed that he was the most dangerous opponent after Sauron in the two towers. Aragorn also said that Gandalf was mightier than all the Nine Nazgul. Legolas said that the Balrog was the most dangerous foe after Sauron. All the evidence still points to the fact that Gandalf the White was the most powerful foe after Sauron.

Also, the finding of & usage of the enchanted blade which Merry used to defeat the WK was down to luck. Was it not for the magical blade, both Merry & Eowyn would have died instantly.

[narfforc]

I think you may want to change the word luck for fate. Was it lucky that Bilbo found the Ring or was it fate, Gandalf seemed to think he was meant to find it, therefore it is no stretch of the imagination that the hobbits were meant to get lost on The Barrow-downs. If this is so, then fate ordained, that a blade of Westernesse would be present at the time of The Witch-kings demise.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Don't forget that Gandalf the White was more powerful than when Grey! And while Grey he defeated the greatest foe that walked ME after Sauron in the form of the Balrog of Morgoth! This is evidence enough that Gandalf is a truly dangerous enemy when challenged to the death. Was the WK so upgraded in power that he was even on the same level as a Balrog?? I think not.

ah, and there's the rub. you said it yourself. I THINK not. You do not know. it is all circumstantial evidence.

Also, the finding of & usage of the enchanted blade which Merry used to defeat the WK was down to luck. Was it not for the magical blade, both Merry & Eowyn would have died instantly.

as nafforc says, it was fate rather than luck. you could say the same, that it was luck that gollum Fell and therefore the Quest succeded? No. It was Frodo's compassion in not killing him the many chance he had. therefore, frodo, and middle-earth were saved.

Originally Posted by Essex

ah, and there's the rub. you said it yourself. I THINK not. You do not know. it is all circumstantial evidence.

Are you in effect accusing Gandalf the White, Aragorn, & Legolas of lying, or at least exaggerating?

I don't believe Gandalf is arrogant, probably a bit too cautious & unsure of himself on rare ocassions.

He feared the Balrog in the book & film but defeated it. He was anxious of the WK due to its great ability to influence the battle for ME on Minas Tirith (in the book). But the likelihood is that he would be too much for the WK in the end ...... the WK would withdraw after finding out for itself that it can match Gandalf but cannot defeat him, & would then cast its terror on the battlefield instead etc.

That is what PJ should have done in the film. One of the few errors in what was otherwise a great effort by PJ & Co.

[Guinevere]

This thread apparently never dies!
I think the never ending arguments about who is more powerful, Gandalf or the Witchking, are beside the point.
In the book the moment when they are poised against each other at the gate is full of tension, just because it is not clear to the reader who might be stronger. Gandalf is not without fear (as Pippin notices, in the book), but to show him thrown to the ground and looking helpless and hopeless is so out of character. He should just stand there and not give way. The dramatic moments are obviously never dramatic enough for PJ - he has always the tendency to overdo them, which, for me at least, ruins them. (Same with the Sammath Naur scene)

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

This thread apparently never dies!
I think the never ending arguments about who is more powerful, Gandalf or the Witchking, are beside the point.
In the book the moment when they are poised against each other at the gate is full of tension, just because it is not clear to the reader who might be stronger. Gandalf is not without fear (as Pippin notices, in the book), but to show him thrown to the ground and looking helpless and hopeless is so out of character. He should just stand there and not give way. The dramatic moments are obviously never dramatic enough for PJ - he has always the tendency to overdo them, which, for me at least, ruins them. (Same with the Sammath Naur scene)

Guinevere, my head was nodding so much in agreement reading this that it almost fell off. What stopped it was the last sentence in brackets. But that's worthy of ANOTHER thread in itself!!!!! I thought the Sammath Naur scene (though different) worked really well movie wise!

Anyway back to Gandalf / WK - Absolutley - I think you've hit the nail on the head. I have been so vociferous against posters who say Gandalf's DEFINATELY stronger than WK blah blah blah - he may well have been but we DON'T KNOW THIS.

What you state is so true to what I think Tolkien was getting across here. There is SO much tension whilst reading this in the book. To get this scene full of tension (for NON book readers who are in the majority - sorry but that's true - these films were for them just as much as for us - even the EE I would hazard to guess) - PJ added more of a situation in Gandalf looking weaker so that we can see the Rohirrim, and therefore the World of Men, saving the day.

But to show Gandalf thrown to the ground and apparently beat I now admit to not liking - But only because Guinevere states a very good case, not just GANDALF IS FAR BETTER THAN THE WK, or in other words my dad's bigger than yours.

Cheers Gunivere! After just over 1 year I finally concede that by having Gandalf prostrate on the Floor is a bit over the top!

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf feared the Balrog in the book & film but defeated it. He was anxious of the WK due to its great ability to influence the battle for ME on Minas Tirith (in the book). But the likelihood is that he would be too much for the WK in the end ...... the WK would withdraw after finding out for itself that it can match Gandalf but cannot defeat him, & would then cast its terror on the battlefield instead etc.

I don't think that Gandalf was ever going to destroy the WK ........... not unless the WK stayed long enough to battle for hours (as was the case with the Balrog of Morgoth). I also think Gandalf was much more terrified of a possible encounter with the Balrog, far more than with the WK. Only a hint though that the Balrog was more dangerous than the WK. The truth rests with Mr Tolkien.

[Guinevere]

Come to think of it, this encounter in the book is in quite a different setting - it is much more important than the one in the movie!
In the book scene Grond has just broken the great gate of Minas Tirith and no enemy has yet entered the City. Gandalf on Shadowfax alone stands there to hinder the Witchking from entering.("all fled before his face")
And when the horns are heard, it is indeed the Rohirrim who save Minas Tirith from being invaded.

In the Movie encounter, the enemy is already in the City.( PJ wanted some more fighting!) The arrival of the Witchking on the fell beast is impressive, but not all that important. Gandalf just standing unmoving and steadfast wouldn't make that much sense, since he's not guarding the gate against the invasion. Even if Gandalf would defeat the WK, what would it help the City?
Even the arrival and the brave fight of the Rohirrim aren't that important either. In the end it's the ghastly green termite-army of the undead who saves the town.

A lot of changes which in turn caused other changes ... (most of them not to my liking, since I am not at all fond of battle and fight scenes. I usually skip them when watching the DVD!)

[Essex]

We have to remember also, in the book, that Rohirrim's forces were also fading. When they saw the ships with the black sales all hope was lost. So therefore, Aragorn and his men also saved the day. In the film, as you point out Guinivere, that

In the end it's the ghastly green termite-army of the undead who saves the town.

I've tried to answer this one before. If we do not have the men of the Dead in the Pellenor, then we would have to have yet ANOTHER battle scene at Pelagir on the River. We would have to invest time in the men of the Dead fighting the Corsairs, Aragorn freeing the Slaves, Aragorn picking up all the other men, Aragorn freeing the King of the Dead and his people from their curse - in the book we had this told to us in retrospect - this would not work in a movie - all none book readers would be shouting 'where di all the green guys go?'

so without the 'green men' at Pellonor we would have to have ANOTHER big fight scene, lots of scene setting and dialouge which would SLOW the film down now that Jackson has helped skillfully bring it up towards a crescendo, and therefore we would have no surprise entrance into the Pellenor (as we have in the book) by Aragorn and co.

Therefore film wise, I can understand why Jackson had the Dead help fight Sauron's forces at Pellenor rather than at Pelagir. It was the lesser of two evils. Hey, I'd like a full length unabridged version of the text made into a mini series, and then we can have the EXACT scenes acted out as Tolkien described them. 54 hours of material (thats how long it takes to read it out aloud), with exposition, retrospective telling of tales etc cannot be fitted into three 3-4 hour movies.