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Old 04-17-2006, 11:00 AM   #1
Tuor in Gondolin
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How about these changes? And while, on reflection, Gollum's
actions to regain the Ring were also failures, like Frodo's
to destroy it, as an effort , JRRT viewed it as impressive.
(In Letters # 181)
Quote:
His [Gollum's] marvellous courage and endurance, as great as Frodo's and Sam's or greater, being directed to evil was portentous, but not honorable...
1-Sam Gives the Ring back to Frodo
2-Bilbo leaves the Ring for Frodo
3-Merry helps slay the Witchking of Angmar
4-Bilbo goes down the tunnel to first Smaug confrontation
5-Gollum's epic efforts to regain the Ring
6-Frodo's failed effort to destroy the Ring
7-Frodo defies the nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen
8-The Bullroarer kills an orc while he's defending The Shire
9-Deagol finds the Ring in the Anduin
10-Pippin kills a troll outside the Iron Gates
11-Bilbo saves the dwarves from the giant spiders
12-Rosie has numerous children and emotionally supports Samwise
13-Bilbo gives the Arkenstone to the elves and men of Dale
14-Bilbo returns to Erebor after giving up the Arkenstone
15. Rumor has it hobbit archers helped out against Angmar
16-Lobelia confronts Sharkey's gang with her umbrella
17-Frodo finally (with "assistance" from Boromir) decides to go to Mordor
18-Bilbo gets the dwarves out of Thranduil's Realm
19-Fatty Bolger stays behind to cover Frodo's trail
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Last edited by Tuor in Gondolin; 04-17-2006 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 04-17-2006, 12:47 PM   #2
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Quote:
8-The Bullroarer kills an orc while he's defending The Shire
To be fair, that rather understates the achievement. He led a band of Hobbit militia which routed a Goblin raiding party. And beheaded their chieftain. And invented golf.

OK, perhaps move him down the list for that last one ...
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
6-Frodo's failed effort to destroy the Ring
I actually disagree with this, and I would place it at least 2nd, because Sam giving the Ring back to Frodo is hard to top, that was truly heroic. But, the reason I think this should be bumped up is because Frodo didn't fail.

Sure, he failed his personal test of not being able to drop the ring into the Fire, but he didn't fail in destroying the Ring. Frodo's quest was to destroy the ring, he didn't personally have to destroy it, all that needed done was the Ring to be destroyed and Frodo made that happen.

With intervening from Eru the Ring is destroyed, but the incredible deed is Frodo GETTING it to Mount Doom. He failed his test, but the quest succeeded the Ring was destroyed and what Frodo goes through to get to Mount Doom is absolutely amazing.

1st, he's told by Gandalf to get the Ring to Rivendell. Easy enough right...well Frodo gets worried because Gandalf hasn't come back yet, so him and his buds decide they need to set out and plan this big conspiracy to get Frodo out. Here we see Frodo willingly coming up with what he has to do, which is get the Ring to Rivendell, even if Gandalf didn't tell him it's ok to go yet, .

2nd, Just by getting the Ring to Rivendell, going through all them obstacles.

3rd, taking it upon himself to destroy the Ring. Yet again, he willingly puts the whole fate of Middle-earth on his shoulders and says he's going to take it to Mordor. No easy thing for a little hobbit. He puts aside his own comfort and safety back at home, to go on this epic quest.

4th, Gets the ring to Mount Doom and this is the most amazing of all. He bears a wound by the Witch-King, a wound by Shelob, the weight and influence of the Ring, and with his best bud Sam (who I know Frodo couldn't have done it without Sam) he gets the Ring to Mount Doom and gets it destroyed. He personally doesn't destroy it, but he succeeds in the Quest which was to destroy the Ring.

What Frodo goes through and triumphs over is incredible, and at the very least should be #2. Forget the fact that he personally didn't destroy it, that would have made him a demi-god, because no one could have done it, but look at what he did to GET the Ring destroyed. Simply amazing.
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Old 04-18-2006, 06:02 AM   #4
Tuor of Gondolin
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As Captain Kirk might observe:
Quote:
As always, logical, Mr. Boromir.
And, as Gollum's efforts also failed, one should put
heroic efforts for good above that for evil, and
Bilbo did have help with his ring effort, so:

1-Sam Gives the Ring back to Frodo
2-Merry helps slay the Witchking of Angmar
3-Frodo's failed effort to destroy the Ring
4-Bilbo leaves the Ring for Frodo
5-Bilbo goes down the tunnel to first Smaug confrontation
6-Gollum's epic efforts to regain the Ring
7-Frodo defies the nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen
8-The Bullroarer kills an orc while he's defending The Shire
9-Deagol finds the Ring in the Anduin
10-Pippin kills a troll outside the Iron Gates
11-Bilbo saves the dwarves from the giant spiders
12-Rosie has numerous children and emotionally supports Samwise
13-Bilbo gives the Arkenstone to the elves and men of Dale
14-Bilbo returns to Erebor after giving up the Arkenstone
15. Rumor has it hobbit archers helped out against Angmar
16-Lobelia confronts Sharkey's gang with her umbrella
17-Frodo finally (with "assistance" from Boromir) decides to go to Mordor
18-Bilbo gets the dwarves out of Thranduil's Realm
19-Fatty Bolger stays behind to cover Frodo's trail
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:53 PM   #5
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Thankyou for the kindness Captain...can I beam you up now?

Anway, I found this which goes along which fits in with the Frodo ordeal. Tolkien said that Frodo failed as a hero, but morally he did not fail. What Frodo did was set an impossible goal for himself, and when you set impossible goals you fail. But, what Frodo did do was amazing in itself...getting the Ring to Mount Doom, while being starved, bearing a great weight/pain, and the influence of the Ring, where the ultimate goal in the end was acheived.
Quote:
"Frodo indeed ‘failed’ as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say ‘simple minds’ with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is Present in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God. For finite judges of imperfect knowledge it must lead to the use of two different scales of ‘morality’. To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve. To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by ‘mercy’: that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular circumstances.*

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.

We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our soul-body structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his limits, and the blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.~Letter 246
So, taking this Letter by Tolkien into consideration, I'm content with it being number 3
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Old 04-18-2006, 06:59 PM   #6
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I would go further, Boro.

It seems to me that Frodo's amazing act of courage, selflesness and endurance was the single most important act ever achieved by a Hobbit in Middle-earth. He may not have been able to destroy the Ring when it came to it but (discounting Tom Bombadil) no one else could have done it either. The very fact that got the Ring to Mount Zoom - er - sorry - Doom was an incredible achievement in itself. The burden and effort involved in carrying it there was probably more than enough to overcome most. And it was through the kindness and pity that he had shown towards Gollum that the Ring was ultimately able to be destroyed.

He may have failed to willingly destroy the Ring. But I would rather put a positive "spin" on it and say that he succeeded in his Quest.

The achievements of Sam and Merry should not be underestimated, I agree. But they are surely superseded by Frodo's achievement. While Sam certainly contributed, it was Frodo who was able, through his endeavours, to bring about the circumstances whereby the Ring could be destroyed. And, in doing so, he saved the entirety of Middle-earth from falling under Sauron's thrall.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:47 PM   #7
Tuor of Gondolin
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Okay, a change. A tie for second is now declared.
But still to be answered is, can a failure (however noble)
be declared an achievement? Perhaps.
(And if the Bullroarer hadn't inadvertendly invented
golf he'd probably be up at # 5).
And how come Fatty Bolger gets no respect- you know what I mean!

1-Sam Gives the Ring back to Frodo
2-Merry helps slay the Witchking of Angmar
2-Frodo's failed effort to destroy the Ring
4-Bilbo leaves the Ring for Frodo
5-Bilbo goes down the tunnel to first Smaug confrontation
6-Gollum's epic efforts to regain the Ring
7-Frodo defies the nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen
8-The Bullroarer kills an orc while he's defending The Shire
9-Deagol finds the Ring in the Anduin
10-Pippin kills a troll outside the Iron Gates
11-Bilbo saves the dwarves from the giant spiders
12-Rosie has numerous children and emotionally supports Samwise
13-Bilbo gives the Arkenstone to the elves and men of Dale
14-Bilbo returns to Erebor after giving up the Arkenstone
15. Rumor has it hobbit archers helped out against Angmar
16-Lobelia confronts Sharkey's gang with her umbrella
17-Frodo finally (with "assistance" from Boromir) decides to go to Mordor
18-Bilbo gets the dwarves out of Thranduil's Realm
19-Fatty Bolger stays behind to cover Frodo's trail
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