Did elves smoke?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

So "the fading of the elves" so regretted by
the hobbits, elves, and men refers to their
smoking after initial combustion. Fascinating.
Presumably the lack of elves in the Fourth Age spurred
the invention of matches and lighters.

[davem]

I am sorry to see an informed & erudite discussion (on my part in the main, admittedly), relegated to 'Mirth'. Sadly this has always been the fate of such cutting edge speculations

I intentionally provided quotes, & references to Tolkien's works, to back up my thesis that Elves are innately prone to combustion & a particularly useful fuel source. I think its clear, now, that the reason for the tiny number of Elves in Endor by the end of the Third Age is due principally to, on the one hand, their usefulness as a source of domestic fuel &, on the other, to SEC (Spontaneous Elven Combustion) due to over excitement or stress. Incidents of IEC (Intentional Elven Combustion) also seem to have occurred in battle as a deliberate act (Elves as WMD's is an area I think is worthy of further investigation. Morgoth's invasion of Beleriand was probably down to his desire to locate & neutralise this threat to Angband.)

I hope this move to Mirth will not result in the thread being taken over by sillyness & jokey comments.

Thankyou.

[Elu Ancalime]

Before this thread is shut down I will put my two cents in. I recall that at Bilbo's party, Gandalf had many fireworks with DALE printed on them. Perhaps a barter between the men and dwarves of the area to rid themselves of the orc corpses left over from the Battle of Five Armies?

And also, do you think smoking a pipe would be allowed in Lothloriwn and Mirkwood? It might set an accidental forest fire or a scout in Mirkwood might give away his position. Its not like elves would catch lung cancer or anything...As far as SEC goes, maybe expolsion in Arda could be measured in TNT (Trinitorcluene) which is C7 H5 N3 O6, the ashen remains of an orc carcass. Of course it would be more practical and ethical to use orcs instead of elves.

Perhaps its just from the 'Fire' within. <bad pun>
________
Extreme q vaporizer

[davem]

It is of course possible that the long periods of 'Cold War' during the First Age was a result of a policy of 'Mutually Assured Destruction', with Morgoth & the Elven Leaders holding out the threat of suicide bands of Orcs & Elves against each other. It would, in theory, be possible to measure the relative power of such bands in megatonnes. Certainly the devastation of Beleriand seems inexplicable in terms of mere hand to hand fighting & only the deployment of heavy Elven/Orcish ordinance could account for it. Its possible that the real reason an Elf like Glorfindel could take out a Balrog was that he detonated himself & the Balrog, being close by, was blown up as a result.

Its also possible that the Atani who went to Numenor were in reality seeking to escape such devastating forces, or at the very least wanted to get away from the very real problems of fallout & 'elvo-active' contamination.

Thinking about it, its probable that Peter Jackson was alluding to this aspect of Elvish nature in his depiction of Galadriel in the movie.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Elves as WMD's is an area I think is worthy of further investigation. Morgoth's invasion of Beleriand was probably down to his desire to locate & neutralise this threat to Angband.

This would help explain why some of the Elven leaders took to hiding down caves, like a certain moustachioed man. Did Morgoth present his Balrog, Troll, Orc and Vampire subjects with a claim that flaming Elves could reach Angband in 45 minutes?

Hmm, Numenor as Three Mile Island? Elendil as captain of the Rainbow Warrior?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Perhaps its just from the 'Fire' within. <bad pun>

Pun or not, this puts the idea of elves and flames in a different light. We all know that Gandalf is the wielder of the Flame Imperishable, the Secret Fire and the holder of the Fire Ring. (What balrog does not know this?) What does this mean? Does he descend to enlighten the inhabitants of Middle-earth? There is a precedent for this, if not in the ancient Norse mythologies, at least in European art.

I know davem is dead set against this idea, but allow me to point out how prevalent in the European religious tradition is this idea of the descent of the holy flame.

First, a painting by Gustav Dore.




Next, a more modern painting by Luke Dingman.



Now, something by Emil Nolde.



El Greco's interpretation of holy enlightenment:



And, finally, from di Buoninsegna:



I think we have been on the wrong track to contemplate elven self combustion--although may I point out that I was the first on the Downs to imagine this possibility when for REB in a funeral post for the Lord Etceteron I recounted his sodden demise through spontaneous combustion. I do not think it is the elves per se who are flammable--or, in a Canadian colloquialism, blow up good--but rather Eru who chooses to give life through fire.

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."

I posit that Eä! under this greater illumination might be translated not as Let It Be but as Light My Fire.

[Elu Ancalime]

Perhaps Eru was a pyromaniac. Or he those pictures could be a metephor for the merging of elf and man, the elf being the fire, and man being the people.
________
Starcraft replays

[davem]

I think its growing more & more obvious that the devastation Frodo & Sam encountered in Mordor was a direct result of incendiary devices used by the Last Alliance & by Sauron's forces in response – most probably Elves & Orcs being hurled by catapult into enemy lines. The psychological effect alone of Elves & Orcs flying through the smoky air emitting their characteristic shrieking 'whistles' as they fell must have been devastating. The main advantage of using catapults though would have been the splatter effect, which would have spread devastation over a much larger area than mere self-detonation on the ground by an individual.

[narfforc]

You should all read your Lord of the Gas-Rings again, in The Reburn of The King, The Stewer of Gondor desperately tries to become an Elf in the Chapter called The Pyromaniac Denethor.