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#1 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
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Beth, if you are suggesting that the Valar's gambit in the War of the (shiny) Ring was to rouse the magpies, I have to question whether their hearts were really in it.
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Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
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#2 | |
Energetic Essence
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I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face! Fenris Wolf
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#3 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
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And I thought this thread had passed over the Sea into Mirth.
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Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
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#4 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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Thoughts on the Valar...
They seem to have taken a back seat in the events of Middle-earth. Which is fine. Things tended not to work out as well as they would have liked when they did interfere with the lives of Men and Elves. Numenor, while it started well, became problematic and was destroyed cataclysmically. And too, I can see them being hesitant to intervene in anything directly. They didn't know the whole of the music, so they couldn't have been sure of Eru's plans. And where Men were involved, those plans had a way of being unpredictable, since the music wasn't 'fate' to the mortals. They left the business of running Middle-earth to its inhabitants, though they did what they could to help indirectly. Consider the Istari, sent to aid the free people against Sauron but expressly forbidden to use their powers to interfere directly. A final point - who's to say that the Valar could have destroyed it? They weren't incorruptible. Melkor certainly wasn't. Gandalf feared the Ring. Saruman sought it for himself. If it went to Valinor, who's to say that one of the Valar wouldn't have fallen to it and become the worst Dark Lord of them all since Morgoth? Accepting the Ring could well have been the worst possible step for the safety of Middle-earth. EDIT: Now, don't go and underestimate those magpies, master Pirateomer. Dread creatures they are, and would be quite good scouts for anyone. As for turning them to the good side, I suppose Radagast might have done so, but being that he looked every bit the scarecrow (at least to my imagination), I don't know how much help he would have been. ![]()
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. Last edited by Celuien; 06-24-2006 at 03:26 PM. |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The successful destruction of the Ring was owed almost entirely to the Valar. It was they who sent the Istari, and it was Gandalf who saved Middle-earth by engineering and manipulating the events of the War of the Ring. Mount Doom, we're told, is the only fire that can unmake The One Ring; not just because it's the only fire hot enough, but because it is the fire in which it was originally forged: there's a metaphysical connection there. Taking the Ring to Aman would have done nothing to destroy Sauron, since as long as the Ring existed, Sauron was impossible to permanently eradicate. The only way, in fact, to defeat Sauron once and for ever was to destroy the Ring, which, as I pointed out above, could not have been done anywhere but Mount Doom. The Valar acted exactly how they should have by assigning the Istari to their mission--particularly in selecting the humble but mighty Olorin.
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#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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I,m with Obloquoy with this one, Bilbo was meant to find the Ring therefore Frodo was meant to have it, and that is a sobering thought. Is this not fate, is not fate in the hand of the God/Iluvatar or the powers. How many chess pieces are moved randomly, even in seeming defeat, Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, Smeagols continued existence. Concience is said to be the link with God, everyone has that voice in their head, was Eru active in the decisions of the Fellowship?
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Also, at no point did Gandalf fail. Eru's intervention was precisely because Gandalf succeeded not only in protecting his company and mission, but he had also conquered the moral test that Saruman had failed--namely, he maintained integrity to the Powers when confronted by an enemy that he really needed to open up against. Lastly, there's no reason to believe that Gandalf's wisdom was enhanced. He was one of the wisest Ainur in his beginning, and was the wisest of the Istari from the start. Gandalf was enhanced with regard to the limiting nature of his incarnation and the rules he was subject to. Gandalf the White (and Olorin, who was presumably mightier still) was always a latent part of Gandalf of the Third Age, but was only allowed to be revealed after his true test of faith--that is, dying in abnegation of himself (to use Tolkien's word) to the Balrog. At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check. |
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