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Old 06-25-2006, 10:12 AM   #1
obloquy
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Originally Posted by Raynor
I disagree; their only merit was the sending of the Istari. The wizards have failed, all to the last - that is, until Eru intervened, resurrected Gandalf, enlarged his power and wisdom and sent him back.
It was solely because of Gandalf's manipulation of events and people, and Saruman's research into ring-lore that anything was ever done about the Ring. In other words, the Istari saved the world. It's irrelevant that three of the five turned out largely useless.

Also, at no point did Gandalf fail. Eru's intervention was precisely because Gandalf succeeded not only in protecting his company and mission, but he had also conquered the moral test that Saruman had failed--namely, he maintained integrity to the Powers when confronted by an enemy that he really needed to open up against.

Lastly, there's no reason to believe that Gandalf's wisdom was enhanced. He was one of the wisest Ainur in his beginning, and was the wisest of the Istari from the start. Gandalf was enhanced with regard to the limiting nature of his incarnation and the rules he was subject to. Gandalf the White (and Olorin, who was presumably mightier still) was always a latent part of Gandalf of the Third Age, but was only allowed to be revealed after his true test of faith--that is, dying in abnegation of himself (to use Tolkien's word) to the Balrog. At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check.
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Old 06-25-2006, 11:21 AM   #2
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It was solely because of Gandalf's manipulation of events and people, and Saruman's research into ring-lore that anything was ever done about the Ring. In other words, the Istari saved the world. It's irrelevant that three of the five turned out largely useless.
Gandalf made errors of judgement and Saruman's obstruction and betrayal proved almost fatal.
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At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check.
I disagree; he did the best he could to defeat the balrog; and there are other events in the past when he displayed his power (confronting the nazguls, lighting fires in the night, destroying the chamber of Marzabul).

To address your other points:
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Originally Posted by Letter #156
For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.
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Old 07-01-2006, 02:59 AM   #3
The Sixth Wizard
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I must disagree with you Raynor, Gandalf, or Olorin, had a part in the devising of the world, he was the wisest of the children of the Valar, more powerful(?) than even Melian who protected a realm from Melkor the Mighty! Doing those things with the Nazgul and the Chamber is probably like lifting a feather for him. I think he must have been holding himself back, even a lowly Noldorian elf can destroy a Balrog.

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I had to speak a word of Command.
Is this Gandalf using part of his Olorinary power?
And what does it mean when he threatens to uncloak before Bilbo, is this also a threat to reveal himself?

The Newbie signs out.

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Old 07-01-2006, 03:32 AM   #4
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more powerful(?) than even Melian who protected a realm from Melkor the Mighty
Melian protected her realm against all Melkor's forces, Gandalf fell to a single balrog.
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Doing those things with the Nazgul and the Chamber is probably like lifting a feather for him
Wrong on both accounts; in Many meetings, Gandalf states he was "hard put to it" when fighting the nazgul; and after destroying the chamber he can't light the way for the company, being "rather shaken".
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even a lowly Noldorian elf can destroy a Balrog
Glorfindel and Ecthelion as lowly elves??
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Old 07-01-2006, 03:55 AM   #5
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What I was trying to say was according to Valaquenta Olorin was the 'wisest' of the Maiar, if he was this mighty is he just refusing to show his power because of Manwe's orders? For his inner power would these things be easy, like destroying the Chamber? And it may be up for debate whether he meant he was sorely trialed from breaking his 'Rules' against the Nazgul, if the greater power of his would have had less trouble...

And Elves in general are less powerful than Maiar, even the great lords maybe, this was the impression I was going on.

Will cease arguing now!

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Old 07-01-2006, 11:20 AM   #6
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What I was trying to say was according to Valaquenta Olorin was the 'wisest' of the Maiar, if he was this mighty
You seem to confuse wise with mighty.
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And it may be up for debate whether he meant he was sorely trialed from breaking his 'Rules' against the Nazgul
Why would Gandalf hint to his istar conditions, and therefore to his angelic nature? That is the very thing he should avoid, so you are almost contradicting yourself. I don't see any double meaning in his saying.
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if you do some research you'll realize that Gandalf's latent and native power was far greater than what shone through his old man suit
I am not sure if you are in disagreement with something I said or if that is a personal comment; either way, please be more specific.
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:25 PM   #7
The Sixth Wizard
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This is all very interesting, first of all, thanks for a learning experience!

What are the limitations he is subject to anyway, I can't remember where I read them... I was under the impression he has to be limited to the incarnate body...
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Old 07-01-2006, 10:56 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynor
Melian protected her realm against all Melkor's forces, Gandalf fell to a single balrog.
Wrong on both accounts; in Many meetings, Gandalf states he was "hard put to it" when fighting the nazgul; and after destroying the chamber he can't light the way for the company, being "rather shaken".
Glorfindel and Ecthelion as lowly elves??
There were limitations that he had to observe (or was perhaps forced to observe) as an incarnate Istar. Nobody* is claiming that his mission was a refreshing stroll in the park; however, if you do some research you'll realize that Gandalf's latent and native power was far greater than what shone through his old man suit.

Edit: *I guess that other guy is claiming that, but he's wrong.

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