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#1 | |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Also, at no point did Gandalf fail. Eru's intervention was precisely because Gandalf succeeded not only in protecting his company and mission, but he had also conquered the moral test that Saruman had failed--namely, he maintained integrity to the Powers when confronted by an enemy that he really needed to open up against. Lastly, there's no reason to believe that Gandalf's wisdom was enhanced. He was one of the wisest Ainur in his beginning, and was the wisest of the Istari from the start. Gandalf was enhanced with regard to the limiting nature of his incarnation and the rules he was subject to. Gandalf the White (and Olorin, who was presumably mightier still) was always a latent part of Gandalf of the Third Age, but was only allowed to be revealed after his true test of faith--that is, dying in abnegation of himself (to use Tolkien's word) to the Balrog. At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check. |
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#2 | |||
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Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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To address your other points: Quote:
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#3 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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I must disagree with you Raynor, Gandalf, or Olorin, had a part in the devising of the world, he was the wisest of the children of the Valar, more powerful(?) than even Melian who protected a realm from Melkor the Mighty! Doing those things with the Nazgul and the Chamber is probably like lifting a feather for him. I think he must have been holding himself back, even a lowly Noldorian elf can destroy a Balrog.
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power?And what does it mean when he threatens to uncloak before Bilbo, is this also a threat to reveal himself? The Newbie signs out. Last edited by The Sixth Wizard; 07-01-2006 at 03:07 AM. |
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#4 | |||
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Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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#5 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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What I was trying to say was according to Valaquenta Olorin was the 'wisest' of the Maiar, if he was this mighty is he just refusing to show his power because of Manwe's orders? For his inner power would these things be easy, like destroying the Chamber? And it may be up for debate whether he meant he was sorely trialed from breaking his 'Rules' against the Nazgul, if the greater power of his would have had less trouble...
And Elves in general are less powerful than Maiar, even the great lords maybe, this was the impression I was going on. Will cease arguing now!
Last edited by The Sixth Wizard; 07-01-2006 at 04:04 AM. |
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#6 | |||
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Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
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#7 |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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This is all very interesting, first of all, thanks for a learning experience!
What are the limitations he is subject to anyway, I can't remember where I read them... I was under the impression he has to be limited to the incarnate body... |
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#8 | |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Edit: *I guess that other guy is claiming that, but he's wrong. Last edited by obloquy; 07-01-2006 at 11:23 AM. |
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