The Nightmare World of Tolkien

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I don't know, Lal. For down right blood-thirstiness, nothing in LotR beats some of the Psalms, to me at least.

You haven't met my daughter.

For real horror, read saints' lives.

Maybe where the influence came from. From my own experiences growing up with an ex-Catholic grandmother (both my grandmothers were cast from the church for being pregnant before marriage, one also from her family), I know just how Gothic and visceral the religion is. Stories of penance and flagellation, eating human flesh, and the gloomy prospect of going through a baroque system of judgement worthy of the civil service at death. We talked about this not so long ago, and a lot of the Gothic architects and designers were mysteriously also Catholics. For me, it has to be something in the religion which stirs the imagination to such Arts.

A Goth who doesn't like Tolkien? They're bringing them up wrong these days. It needs to be a strict diet of Bauhaus and scary things about Ringwraiths or they'll never get the urge to go out and buy a velvet cloak.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

An interesting topic, Lal.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that, the world Tolkien created was essentially a pseudo medieval world. The ancient (and, let's face it, the modern) world was a very violent place. Life is, to all outside viewers, I would expect, a pretty blood curdling, terrifying and nasty thing.

It's sort of essential to the realism (if fantasy can seem real to a certain extent*) that violence and blood stuff be included. Also, to make the seemingly easy task of killing goblins and Orcs more morally acceptable, I suppose they had to be pretty damned bad things to begin with.

As for the more horrific elements; Black Riders, Shelob and the rest; I think it stands to reason that there would be tremendously bad things as there are tremendously good things. Rivendel Vs Mordor. Galadriel Vs Shelob (these are all, of course, off the top of my head and I'm making no real connection between these characters, as such. Just pointing out that there are very good and very bad things).

Also, most things set in a realm of Dragons and warfare are almost always dumped into the 'gothic' genre because of the Dragons and warfare. Not everyone who reads The Lord of the Rings instantly wants to go out and slay some Orcs (although, perhaps if presented with one, the temptation may be slightly greater )

In short... I don't know... Magic is probably the answer.

*In my own opinion, Fantasy is a better reality. Not everyone agrees. But I like to think it is.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

The more I read threads like this the more I realise that JRRT in his undergraduate days must have spent many Saturday nights in Glasgow .

[ninja91]

I agree, Lal. (hopefully you dont mind me calling you that, too... )
I can think of a hundred spooks from Lord of the Rings. (including you, mouth of sauron (no offense meant ) )
Also, Halloween is coming up, and last year I was a Ringwraith. (Who said 16-year-olds cant go out and get some honest candy??? )

[Boromir88]

Don't forget gruesome killings:

Then Nar came up, and found that it was indeed the body of Thror, but the head was severed and lay face downwards. As he knelt there, he heard orc-laughter in the shadows, and the voice said...
[...]
'God and tell them so! But if his family wish to know who is now king here, the name is written on his face. I wrote it! I killed him! I am the Master!'
Then Nar turned the head and saw branded on his brow in Dwarfrunes so that he could read it the name AZOG. That name was branded in his heart and in the hearts of all the dwarves afterwards...~Appendix A: Durin's Folk

And really creepy demon horses:

At its head there road a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils burned a flame.~The Black Gate Opens

Great thread Lalwende.

[Durelin]

Maybe where the influence came from...I know just how Gothic and visceral the religion is.

To think I've been called "Too Christian to be Goth!"

Quite true, though. The concept of "suffering" is still an essential part of the Catholic Church these days, even after a very large makeover in Vatican II.

I like Hookbill's point about the contrasts. Like foils. Having the black, the white, and the grey all in one novel is essential to the scope of The Lord of the Rings.

The idea of contrasts makes me think of one of the philosophical attempts to explain the existence of pain and suffering and the like in the world while leaving room for some kind of ultimate good divine presence...of course I can't quite recall the name of it, but... It tried to prove that we would not have concepts of 'light' and 'dark,' 'old' and 'young,' 'hot' and 'cold,' if either sensation or concept stood on their own. We would not truly understand that someone was 'old' if there was no concept of 'young' to compare it to.

The attempt is to say that 'good' could not really exist as we understand it and could not be fully appreciated if it stood on its own, without 'evil' to compare to it.

I like that argument, even though all that bloody nasty science behind the colours supposedly makes it illogical. *hmph*

eating human flesh

Wow. I didn't know people really looked at it that way. Ah, how ignorant am I.

Ringwraiths, faceless, cloaked, and who will relentlessly hunt you down.

I am certainly quite prepared to admit that reading LotR one night left me rather frightened when reading about Ringwraiths at some point. I thought it was perhaps the first time Frodo sees a Ringwraith, but the way I remembered the passage is completely different from the actual passage… Ah well.

I think the real scary thing is the Ring itself – it’s scary because you just don’t understand how a piece of metal can cause such destruction even within a single person. I think that might be the scariest aspect because it is the most human sort of fear, a fear of corruption, which we face pretty much every day in one form or another.

[mark12_30]

We know Tolkien wrote about at least one of his own dreams: Faramir's great wave. Maybe he also wrote about his nightmares.

[Rumil]

I did hear that Shelob et al were inspired by a nasty bite that Tolkien received from a spider during his childhood in South Africa which quite put him off the creatures, understandably.