The Lord of the Bible?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Sorry for double posting, things are moving at a fast pace here:
What about the snake? Was he wholly good? And isn't evil something of a moral quality? If so, how could Adam and Eve create it? How could they possibly amend God's creation in such a fundamental way? At most, they made an evil choice, possibly the first (most likely the second, considering the snake), but that is a far cry from amending God's creation.

Was the temptation higher than they could handle - such as Frodo's temptation? In fact, they knew of Eru's power and assistance, but still fail to call on Him, they didn't mind about him - I have little if any doubt Eru would have kicked Melkor from one end of Ea to the other, should he have been supplicated. But no, Men failed and fell - in the end, to the glory of Eru.

Who knew of it? Men in LotR didn't know of it, it's only in the Athrabeth, in this it's stated as a kind of tradition, not as a current 'faith', there's no hint that the Men in LotR knew of it. It's up to these Men to work out what's right and wrong for themselves; and indeed part of the 'mission' of the Istari is to guide them (but not push them) towards good choices.

I'd like to see something that proves Eru would have kicked Melkor from one end of Ea to the other had Men called on him. It took Eru long enough to do something about him when the Elves sought help - and then he has simply been chained in the void, not destroyed, and his works go on right into the 4th age and beyond. "No-one can change the music in my despite" is what Eru says, so the fate of Arda is set out in the Music and it can't be altered; Melkor is chained in the Void until the end comes, though I've no doubt he might get a whupping at that point!

Back to Genesis...the serpent is not evil, the serpent simply suggests to Adam and Eve another way of doing things - the point about The Fall is surely that it is all Adam and Eve's choice. They can say no and simply obey (or trust), but they don't. Evil was only a potential possibility (as in Pandora's Box) and it was their actions alone which released it.

Originally Posted by Alatar

Anyway, I do like, as you state, that in Tolkien's world not everything is born with stain (there's a nappy joke in there somewhere), but with the choice to embrace or resist it. That may be why a 'works' theology (as opposed to grace) is popular even outside of Middle Earth - you feel like you're doing something, whether adding negative or positive chits, but that, in your beginning, you start out with a zero balance and not in debt.

That's the way i look at the world and morality anyway - that everyone must work towards doing good and doing the right thing ('moral credit at hole in the wall', as Radiohead say) and people are born good. I think in the Christian sense, the world itself is not evil, but people are born right from the beginning with the 'evil stain' and it must be fought against - Original Sin. In Tolkien's world, the world itself is evil, but people are not necessarily born that way, and they must work to avoid falling into the trap that the very world itself presents. This actually fits better with the world we see in Tolkien where we can even have evil trees, whereas the Christian view focusses on people not on flora and fauna.