Do Balrogs Have Wings? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

narfforc · 10-04-2006, 04:55 AM

Sentence One reads thus: His enemy halted again, facing him, and THE SHADOW about it reached out LIKE two vast wings. This reminds me of shadows by candle-light in a dark room.

It does not say the shadow reached out AS two vast wings, or its wings reached out like two vast shadows, why not?

Sentence Two reads thus: It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly drew itself up to a great height, and its wings (the ones that are built of the shadow that Tolkien tells us of) were spread from wall to wall.

Now this is either exactly what Tolkien tells us the wings are made of, or he made a big mistake. He is either telling us one thing or he is contradicting himself.

I believe there are no wings, you are perfectly entitled to disagree, but this argument has raged for decades, and they that hath the strength of mind and willpower to do so can read the same argument over and over and over again in this thread, and still not get the answer.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-04-2006, 05:28 AM

Well, narfforc, Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond certainly agree with you. Your argument and mine is the one you'll find in their reader's companion to LotR. Obviously they read my posts above while researching their book.

narfforc · 10-04-2006, 06:05 AM

One can only add that Tolkien the Philologist would have known that the word LIKE, can only mean :

A. Resembling

B. Similar to

C. In the characteristic of.

D. In the manner of.

If we are wrong, why did Tolkien use that word.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-04-2006, 08:37 AM

I've cited this argument so many times now that I can't even remember where Mister Underhill first made it on the Downs, but I can see I need to cite it again...

When the Fellowship is paddling down the Anduin and a Nazgul FLIES OVERHEAD (they are all LOOKING UP at something that BLOTS OUT THE STARS so it obviously has working wings), Gimli (who was there at the chasm and saw the balrog) says that it reminds him of the balrog.

At this point, nobody says anything like, "Uhhhh.....Gimli.....the balrog we saw didn't have wings.....what are you, stupid or something?"

It seems impossible to thing anything other than balrogs have wings and that they work after reading that section. Anyone who wants to disprove this is going to have to explain to me why

a) Gimli (who saw the balrog) thinks that something flying in the air reminds him of a balrog

AND

b) why nobody in the Fellowship (who also saw the balrog) doesn't contradict his sentiment or feel the need to correct him.

And, once more, because I never get tired of pointing this out: sometimes, people say that something looks LIKE something because it is that something.

"Hey!" said the man on the traintracks in the dead of night, "that light which is coming toward me rapidly along the tracks looks a lot LIKE an approaching train. Thank goodness, it only looks LIKE a train, and is not totally visible and entirely apprehensible AS a train as it would be in the day, for now I have nothing to worry about. Something that merely looks LIKE a train as it hurtles toward me on the traintracks clearly presents no danger to me. If the light were approaching me AS a train I should be worried and step off the tracks but as things are" *splat*

Lalwendë · 10-04-2006, 08:58 AM

narfforc wins the cash, the girl and the erm...speedboat (that'll come in handy for getting to Sunderland Point then, eh?), because what Gimli says is:

Quote:

'I cannot,' said Gimli. 'But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria--the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

Thus showing that wings are clearly a subliminal ancestral message of our descent from the treetops when still homo erectus or summat or other and loom large in our imaginings and likewise in those of Dwarves which proves they're analgous to the human species and, and ......... Oh, basically that Gimli is a big girl and he's afraid of his memory of a big scary shadow that looked like it had wings.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-04-2006, 09:14 AM

A big whimpy girl who is so afraid of a land-locked shadow that when he sees something flying he says "OOH NOO -- that sure looks like that other shadow"??!!??!!

Like the guy who gets splatted by a train suddenly developing a fear of airplanes.....?!?!?!?!?

And the only thing that was specifically shadowy about the balrog were its wings....so if the FLYING shadow resembles the balrog shadow.....hmmmmm....

Lalwendë · 10-04-2006, 09:35 AM

He's clearly a big girl's blouse, look, he even whispers the word Balrog, like when you're talking about the dog's upcoming boosters and you lean in across the tea table and say "You know, the V. E. T....." in a low whisper. This shadow reminds him of another shadow. But it doesn't remind him of the Balrog or he'd have said "...the Balrog." not "...the shadow of the Balrog."

Bah. Even his name gives him away.

Gimli

Girli

Tell me you could tell them apart from a distance....

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-04-2006, 09:46 AM

Being, as I am, a proud Canuck and an even prouder son of a Prairie boy....Gimli has different associations for me!

"Girlie" indeed! Just look at that statue!

(Last Time: It's a FLYING shadow.)

View Poll Results: Do balrogs have wings?
Yes	114	58.16%
No	82	41.84%
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll

10-04-2006, 04:55 AM	#1
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Sentence One reads thus: His enemy halted again, facing him, and THE SHADOW about it reached out LIKE two vast wings. This reminds me of shadows by candle-light in a dark room. It does not say the shadow reached out AS two vast wings, or its wings reached out like two vast shadows, why not? Sentence Two reads thus: It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly drew itself up to a great height, and its wings (the ones that are built of the shadow that Tolkien tells us of) were spread from wall to wall. Now this is either exactly what Tolkien tells us the wings are made of, or he made a big mistake. He is either telling us one thing or he is contradicting himself. I believe there are no wings, you are perfectly entitled to disagree, but this argument has raged for decades, and they that hath the strength of mind and willpower to do so can read the same argument over and over and over again in this thread, and still not get the answer. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 10-04-2006 at 05:00 AM.

10-04-2006, 05:28 AM	#2
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	A published opinion Well, narfforc, Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond certainly agree with you. Your argument and mine is the one you'll find in their reader's companion to LotR. Obviously they read my posts above while researching their book. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

10-04-2006, 06:05 AM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	One can only add that Tolkien the Philologist would have known that the word LIKE, can only mean : A. Resembling B. Similar to C. In the characteristic of. D. In the manner of. If we are wrong, why did Tolkien use that word. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-04-2006, 08:37 AM	#4
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Getting Blue in the Face Here I've cited this argument so many times now that I can't even remember where Mister Underhill first made it on the Downs, but I can see I need to cite it again... When the Fellowship is paddling down the Anduin and a Nazgul FLIES OVERHEAD (they are all LOOKING UP at something that BLOTS OUT THE STARS so it obviously has working wings), Gimli (who was there at the chasm and saw the balrog) says that it reminds him of the balrog. At this point, nobody says anything like, "Uhhhh.....Gimli.....the balrog we saw didn't have wings.....what are you, stupid or something?" It seems impossible to thing anything other than balrogs have wings and that they work after reading that section. Anyone who wants to disprove this is going to have to explain to me why a) Gimli (who saw the balrog) thinks that something flying in the air reminds him of a balrog AND b) why nobody in the Fellowship (who also saw the balrog) doesn't contradict his sentiment or feel the need to correct him. And, once more, because I never get tired of pointing this out: sometimes, people say that something looks LIKE something because it is that something. "Hey!" said the man on the traintracks in the dead of night, "that light which is coming toward me rapidly along the tracks looks a lot LIKE an approaching train. Thank goodness, it only looks LIKE a train, and is not totally visible and entirely apprehensible AS a train as it would be in the day, for now I have nothing to worry about. Something that merely looks LIKE a train as it hurtles toward me on the traintracks clearly presents no danger to me. If the light were approaching me AS a train I should be worried and step off the tracks but as things are" splat __________________ Scribbling scrabbling. Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 10-25-2006 at 09:37 AM.

10-04-2006, 09:14 AM	#6
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	A big whimpy girl who is so afraid of a land-locked shadow that when he sees something flying he says "OOH NOO -- that sure looks like that other shadow"??!!??!! Like the guy who gets splatted by a train suddenly developing a fear of airplanes.....?!?!?!?!? And the only thing that was specifically shadowy about the balrog were its wings....so if the FLYING shadow resembles the balrog shadow.....hmmmmm....

10-04-2006, 09:35 AM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	He's clearly a big girl's blouse, look, he even whispers the word Balrog, like when you're talking about the dog's upcoming boosters and you lean in across the tea table and say "You know, the V. E. T....." in a low whisper. This shadow reminds him of another shadow. But it doesn't remind him of the Balrog or he'd have said "...the Balrog." not "...the shadow of the Balrog." Bah. Even his name gives him away. Gimli Girli Tell me you could tell them apart from a distance.... __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-04-2006, 09:46 AM	#8
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Being, as I am, a proud Canuck and an even prouder son of a Prairie boy....Gimli has different associations for me! "Girlie" indeed! Just look at that statue! (Last Time: It's a FLYING shadow.) __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.