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09-20-2005, 06:36 PM | #281 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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the only really important issue that i see is if balrogs are bound to one fixed state. if that is so, we are stuck with whatever the book says pertaining to wings. if they are not, than (i think) we can conclude that they can take whatever shape they want. but i've always thought they had one form, otherwise (if i was a balrog) i would transform and fly away, if i was menaced by such a power as gandalf, or ecthilion of the fountain. so there.
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09-21-2005, 05:54 AM | #282 |
Pile O'Bones
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No wings. 'Like' wings is exactly what is described, although there is obviously confusion in some people's minds when the later phrase mentions 'its wings'. But that is all it is - a moment of confusion and ambiguity. Once you read the text again, it is clear that Balrogs do not have wings.
As simple as that. However, I always imagined them having wings because of all the illustrations and models of them in that state. And they do look soooo good with them, as evidenced by PJ's version in the films. So, although I know that Balrogs didn't actually have wings, I don't mind seeing them portrayed with them. |
11-07-2005, 10:38 AM | #283 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
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Heh heh
Shelob sent me the following via PM and I just thought that it should appear here for posterity's sake:
Quote:
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11-07-2005, 12:05 PM | #284 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Um, who says Balrog's wings have to be physical limbs? I mean, who says we even have to see them? Balrogs (though I have never met them personally) have that sort of essence that tells you they are winged. Just that bigness, that presence that ethereal quality that makes up their 'wings'. It's just that the 'wings' are an aspect of the Balrog's spirit rather than its physical form.
EDIT: And besides, you can't have a wingless being looking like some ugly wolf standing on hind legs in a faceoff with Gandalf. No way
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11-22-2005, 03:11 PM | #285 |
Messenger of Hope
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Well, why not? There are many big things without wings, my dear bilbo baggins. Morgoth for one, and all the other Valar, there there are trolls and ents, you know.
Besides that, if Balrogs had wings, they wouldn't go tumbling off mountain peaks like the one that Glorfindal fought in the Sil. It just doesn't make sense for them to have wings. I haven't heard of people making up creatures with wings in fantasy that can't fly. Wings, to writers, are there to be used. Balrogs weren't said to have flown, even when it could've saved their lives. -- Folwren
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11-22-2005, 03:27 PM | #286 | ||
A Shade of Westernesse
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Quote:
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11-22-2005, 07:10 PM | #287 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think Balrogs had wings, but they were for show. That, or they couldn't support the heavy Balrogs when they were falling straight down without any preparation.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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10-01-2006, 09:19 PM | #288 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I (being an impatient person) have read only the first and last pages of this thread, but has Tolkien ever actually described a Balrog other than in LOTR? He says they are only fire-demons. Thus, are all Balrogs actually the same? Being Maiar, could they all alter their form at creation to suit their own wishes? Maybe the only Balrog with wings was in LOTR but didn't use them being caught up with Gandalf.
Another note, I don't know many Morgoth-creatures that could fly, barring the dragons. Manwe is the lord of the air and had birds in his dominion, but Morgoth was not. Perhaps the Balrogs could not fly because of this hatred of the air and sea, they bar themselves to the ground. I had more opinions regarding this, I'll look again when I have the time. SIXTH WIZARD. |
10-01-2006, 10:19 PM | #289 | |
Late Istar
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The Sixth Wizard wrote:
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It is possible for an Eala to become permanently incarnate - this happened to Morgoth and to Sauron and perhaps to Melian (and the Istari were also semi-permanently restricted). But I don't know of any evidence that it happened to the Balrogs. |
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10-02-2006, 06:55 PM | #290 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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well that seems to be a 'politician answer' I stick t my "Frank" idea
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10-02-2006, 07:50 PM | #291 | |
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Once more into the breach!
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10-02-2006, 08:41 PM | #292 |
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I'm just thinking about this and I voted that the balrogs do have wings; but not necessarily can fly. If I remember correctly; when the Balrog attacks it gets described as having wings at one point.Don't quote me as I don't have the books with me. But a question that is getting asked is if the wings worked. If they did work why couldn't he just fly away from Gandalf in mid-air while they are falling. I don't think everyone will ever be happy with the answer.
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10-03-2006, 11:26 AM | #293 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Uh oh.....here we go again......
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10-03-2006, 11:48 AM | #294 |
Messenger of Hope
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If the balrog in the LotR had wings (and could fly) why did he even bother to use the bridge while Gandalf was holding it?
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10-03-2006, 12:02 PM | #295 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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I learned something interesting recently....
A couple of weeks ago we had a bird trapped in the stovepipe to our old wood-burning stove. We couldn't get to it through the grilles and so we kept hoping it would fly out. Sadly, it never did and expired after a couple of days. I was curious as to why it couldn't fly out and so I asked a friend of mine who teaches biology if he could help. He explained to me that only certain flying insects can truly hover, which is the ability to remain steady in the air or to go up or down without any lateral movement. Birds and bats, it seems, can only fly if they are going forward as well as up or down.... So hmmmm......if the balrog had bird- or bat-like wings they would have been useless in the enclosed space of the hall and more than useless, even hindrances, in the confines of the chasm. Now if it had wings like a bee or a dragonfly it could have easily flown to safety....now there's an amusing image. |
10-03-2006, 01:36 PM | #296 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Fordim, which is exactly why the argument that 'If the Balrog had wings why didn't it fly' doesn't work. However, what does work is this argument, which should totally disprove of a wing theory:
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Picture a bird again When it's just sitting still it's wings are folded up, however when it goes to 'fly' the wings reach out and unfold. That's the comparison here that's being made. So, Tolkien is comparing the shadow of the balrog to wings. But it's not in the sense that the shadow had took the form of wings, and looked like wings, but the way it 'reaches' out was like two vast wings. Then a little bit further down we have this quote: Quote:
What we have here is Tolkien clearly sets up that the shadow of the balrog were like wings, and he keeps that comparison going in the second quote. Let's say you don't even believe me and you want to deny the common literary devices of writing. Let's think about it from a logical stance as well. We quite clearly know the height of a balrog. The most Tolkien ever conceived a balrog as being was twice the size of Glorfindel...however these are Tolkien's earliest drafts and by LOTR it's quite clear that Balrogs were roughly man-size, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. This would put the Balrog at around 6-7 feet. Now what we have here in Moria is a chasm, a chasm is an area that is wider than it is long. That would mean the Balrog would have to have absolutely humorgous wings if he actually had literal wings that spread out from wall to wall. This would be extremely inproportianate. Something that was man-size and man-shape, as we are told, it just can't be possible for the Balrog to have a wingspan of say 70 feet (a conservative guess). You also bring up mobility issues, the Balrog was quite agile, it 'leaped' it 'jumped' and I just can't see a 6-7 foot creature, with wings that when full spread would be over 10 times the size of his body, to be able to move around the mines as Durin's Bane is able to. There you have it. If you don't believe in common writing devices authors use (similes, metaphors, extended metaphors...etc)...it's still not even logically possible for a Balrog to literally have wings. As if it did, the wings would not be proportionate to his body, and it would be terribly hard for him to be mobile in the mines carrying around wings at least 10 times the size of his body.
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10-03-2006, 01:42 PM | #297 |
Pilgrim Soul
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But Boromir, lots have things have wings but cannot fly, penguins, emus, chairs, theatres, houses...and according to some people... buffalo ...
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10-03-2006, 01:54 PM | #298 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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As far as the simile is concerned, there is another case where a simile introduces a being with wings: Quote:
Last edited by Raynor; 10-03-2006 at 02:04 PM. |
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10-04-2006, 01:54 AM | #299 | |
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10-04-2006, 04:55 AM | #300 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sentence One reads thus: His enemy halted again, facing him, and THE SHADOW about it reached out LIKE two vast wings. This reminds me of shadows by candle-light in a dark room.
It does not say the shadow reached out AS two vast wings, or its wings reached out like two vast shadows, why not? Sentence Two reads thus: It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly drew itself up to a great height, and its wings (the ones that are built of the shadow that Tolkien tells us of) were spread from wall to wall. Now this is either exactly what Tolkien tells us the wings are made of, or he made a big mistake. He is either telling us one thing or he is contradicting himself. I believe there are no wings, you are perfectly entitled to disagree, but this argument has raged for decades, and they that hath the strength of mind and willpower to do so can read the same argument over and over and over again in this thread, and still not get the answer.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 10-04-2006 at 05:00 AM. |
10-04-2006, 05:28 AM | #301 |
Spectre of Decay
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A published opinion
Well, narfforc, Christina Scull and Wayne G. Hammond certainly agree with you. Your argument and mine is the one you'll find in their reader's companion to LotR. Obviously they read my posts above while researching their book.
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10-04-2006, 06:05 AM | #302 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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One can only add that Tolkien the Philologist would have known that the word LIKE, can only mean :
A. Resembling B. Similar to C. In the characteristic of. D. In the manner of. If we are wrong, why did Tolkien use that word.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
10-04-2006, 08:37 AM | #303 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Getting Blue in the Face Here
I've cited this argument so many times now that I can't even remember where Mister Underhill first made it on the Downs, but I can see I need to cite it again...
When the Fellowship is paddling down the Anduin and a Nazgul FLIES OVERHEAD (they are all LOOKING UP at something that BLOTS OUT THE STARS so it obviously has working wings), Gimli (who was there at the chasm and saw the balrog) says that it reminds him of the balrog. At this point, nobody says anything like, "Uhhhh.....Gimli.....the balrog we saw didn't have wings.....what are you, stupid or something?" It seems impossible to thing anything other than balrogs have wings and that they work after reading that section. Anyone who wants to disprove this is going to have to explain to me why a) Gimli (who saw the balrog) thinks that something flying in the air reminds him of a balrog AND b) why nobody in the Fellowship (who also saw the balrog) doesn't contradict his sentiment or feel the need to correct him. And, once more, because I never get tired of pointing this out: sometimes, people say that something looks LIKE something because it is that something. "Hey!" said the man on the traintracks in the dead of night, "that light which is coming toward me rapidly along the tracks looks a lot LIKE an approaching train. Thank goodness, it only looks LIKE a train, and is not totally visible and entirely apprehensible AS a train as it would be in the day, for now I have nothing to worry about. Something that merely looks LIKE a train as it hurtles toward me on the traintracks clearly presents no danger to me. If the light were approaching me AS a train I should be worried and step off the tracks but as things are" *splat*
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Scribbling scrabbling. Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 10-25-2006 at 09:37 AM. |
10-04-2006, 08:58 AM | #304 | |
A Mere Boggart
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narfforc wins the cash, the girl and the erm...speedboat (that'll come in handy for getting to Sunderland Point then, eh?), because what Gimli says is:
Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
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10-04-2006, 09:14 AM | #305 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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A big whimpy girl who is so afraid of a land-locked shadow that when he sees something flying he says "OOH NOO -- that sure looks like that other shadow"??!!??!!
Like the guy who gets splatted by a train suddenly developing a fear of airplanes.....?!?!?!?!? And the only thing that was specifically shadowy about the balrog were its wings....so if the FLYING shadow resembles the balrog shadow.....hmmmmm.... |
10-04-2006, 09:35 AM | #306 |
A Mere Boggart
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He's clearly a big girl's blouse, look, he even whispers the word Balrog, like when you're talking about the dog's upcoming boosters and you lean in across the tea table and say "You know, the V. E. T....." in a low whisper. This shadow reminds him of another shadow. But it doesn't remind him of the Balrog or he'd have said "...the Balrog." not "...the shadow of the Balrog."
Bah. Even his name gives him away. Gimli Girli Tell me you could tell them apart from a distance....
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Gordon's alive!
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10-04-2006, 09:46 AM | #307 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Being, as I am, a proud Canuck and an even prouder son of a Prairie boy....Gimli has different associations for me!
"Girlie" indeed! Just look at that statue! (Last Time: It's a FLYING shadow.)
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
10-04-2006, 10:00 AM | #308 |
A Mere Boggart
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Yeah, but just look at that emblem with the big Pelican on it. It's a bird, so Gimli is also...a bird.
(love it by the way!) OK, so you see this ruddy huge winged shadow in the dim light of Moria and wet your (not literally, 'your') Dwarf pants with fear. Then see it's not got wings, and it's slightly more comforting but you don't, frankly, care as long as you get outta there; in fact you don't hang around for long enough to really examine said beastie, you just get an impression of it, but the main one is the first view, with wings, that caused you to wet yer Dwarf britches. Then later you see a big winged shadow in the sky and immediately think "%$£*! It's like that thing I thought I saw in Moria!" Our Girli of course later admits to Legolass (explains his fears that he displayed when he went "eeek!" and grabbed Pippin's hand) that he thought it was that Big Scary Shadow again. All that's missing really is Boromir and Aragorn acting like the snidey big brothers, taunting him and saying "Hey! Did the boogie man scare you?"
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Gordon's alive!
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10-04-2006, 10:09 AM | #309 |
Messenger of Hope
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Fordim!! Do you mean to say that you think Balrog's DO have wings?
Humphrey Boggart. Gimli was reminded of the Balrog probably because of the fear and dread he felt as the Nazgul flew overhead. The Nazgul stirred some fear or terror that was much like the fear and terror that the Balrog had brought on. He didn't say 'I think it was a Balrog' he said 'It reminds me of the shadow of the Balrog.' And, if you would look the quote up, Frodo did tell him, 'It wasn't a Balrog.' -- Folwren
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10-04-2006, 10:43 AM | #310 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
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Quote:
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Lal: did you notice the town motto for Gimli, "The captial of New Iceland"? |
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10-04-2006, 10:59 AM | #311 |
Messenger of Hope
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Of course I said it. Why shouldn't I say it? Fordim, don't be daft. This discussion is not about whether or not the Nazgul can fly, it's whether or not the Balrog has wings. What I didn't say was that Gimli was reminded of the Balrog because the Nazgul was flying overhead, as you twisted my words in order to make it sound like I said that.
Please, don't mishandle what I say unless you're an enemy in Werewolf. -- Foley
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A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis |
10-04-2006, 11:52 AM | #312 |
A Mere Boggart
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Yes, you can imagine Frodo sitting there, disconsolately chucking small stones at a row of pine cones propped up on a log, bored out of his brains, as he hears Girli's tale about this scary shadow yet again. "Enough already!" he thinks. "I can't be bothered arguing this time." So he just mutters, with a sigh, "It wasn't a Balrog."
*** I love the way that the municipality of Gimli has not one, but two (count 'em!) interactive Garbage Calendars! I mean, one would be indulgence enough, but two?! I don't know about anyone else, but with stuff like that on offer, I'm packing up the house as we speak.
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Gordon's alive!
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10-04-2006, 12:26 PM | #313 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Hey, when one lives where bears are a constant and unrelenting nuisance, garbage collection is a MAJOR issue. And we're talking real Canadian bears here -- big, hungry and wild -- not those silly European bears, no bigger than a puny cougar (which you also don't have in Europe).
I'm telling you, it's a jungle over here. In addition: like Fell Beasts and unlike hobbits balrogs have functioning wings. |
10-04-2006, 12:34 PM | #314 | |
Messenger of Hope
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10-04-2006, 12:37 PM | #315 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Sorry for serial posting, but this is interesting...
A quick search through the OED uncovers the following: bal: a Cornish dialect word for a collection of mines; usually used in compound with other words (i.e. bal-girl) rog: a verb of scandinavian origin (from 'rugga') which means to shake, tear or tug at forcibly to the point of breaking... So... balrog: Mineshaker, or minebreaker (with or without functioning wings). |
10-04-2006, 01:01 PM | #316 |
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Positive
There may be debate about this topic, but it is true, Balrogs have wings. Their hulking forms prevent them from full flight, but they allow them to soar into the sky for a small amount of time in a bound. My username is in gratitude of those beings who have fallen into darkness. My theory is that the Balrog is a Fallen Angel and sent into the firey pits, thus its wings are burned in small portions making it also impossible for long distance flights.
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10-04-2006, 01:58 PM | #317 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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Quote:
Or looking at the word rugga, it could have been a prop forward from the Moria Marauders who got left behind in the mines when they evacuated. Poor bloke had only gone to fetch his ball back from a chasm where it had been thrown during a try, and he came back to find everyone gone. No wonder he was mad. Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
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10-04-2006, 02:14 PM | #318 |
Messenger of Hope
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Two questions to by answered by you all before I give my next argument.
1. How big, again, did someone say the Balrog was here on this thread? 2. How large was the dwarven hall that they were running through? In the movie, it's massive, but it might not have been THAT huge in the book. . . -- Folwren
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A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis |
10-04-2006, 02:39 PM | #319 | |||||||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Though I think it's well established through out Tolkien's drafts in Khazad-dum that Durin's Bane was approximately man-sized: Quote:
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I think it is important to note that this is only referring to Durin's Bane, not the other Balrogs. So, I think it's possible to assume that Balrogs could come in different height, as you point out they are incarnate and can assume their own forms. Though, I would say that Durin's Bane was approximately man-high, as that is consistant with the drafts and into LOTR. Therefor, it's also reasonable to assume that the Balrog Glorfindel fought can still be twice his height, as it was only referring to that Balrog, no other. Quote:
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Lal and Folwren both note that there is a difference here. Your argument is that since the Nazgul was on a winged creature, and Gimli was reminded of the Balrog, this must mean the Balrog has to have wings, or Gimli wouldn't have made such a comparison. You point out an example of a train and an airplane, but you see here, the comparison is flawed. I can make several comparisons between a train and an airplane, yet know they both have different qualities that make them different. For example, both are made of some sort of metal, both are very very loud, both transport cargo, or people...etc. There's some similarities I've come up with between the two. Just because a train is strictly a land transportation device, and a plane is by the air, doesn't mean there are no comparisons between the two. Obviously a reasonable person will not think it's an airplane on the train tracks. But you can certainly compare the two in several ways. That's all we have here. Gimli is making a comparison, as Folwren points out, between the fear he remembered in Moria. First off, Gimli covered his face and cried, when the Balrog came, how do we know what he actually saw or if he got a good image of it at all? So, we don't even know Gimli's picturation of a Balrog...but he does know the fear that he felt when the Balrog came. Shadow can go hand and hand with fear. Especially with the Nazgul who we are told their fear is enhanced at the night time, in shadow: Quote:
Quote:
Not only do we have actual quotes to prove this, but it just doesn't make sense logically either. Durin's Bane leapt, and jumped across fissures...meaning he was quite agile. He also fought Gandalf for several days from the very depths of Moria to the highest peak...with solely his whip (as Gandalf broke his sword) vs. Gandalf's sword. (You have any idea how difficult it is to fight with a whip against a sword?) So besides quotes to prove the height of Durin's Bane, it just doesn't make sense that a 'hulking beast' could be so agile. Quote:
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10-04-2006, 04:46 PM | #320 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Ai Ai!
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