A Community Statement

[Mithalwen]

To answer Menel and Folwren, this is not an attempt to rabble rouse or an ultimatum. It is a statement of collective unhappiness neither "enterprised, nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, lightly, or wantonly," and made after we discovered that many shared similar feelings and some had received responses that did not dispell their disquiet from private inquiries.

It was done because the Downs had become such an important part of our lives and it matters to us. We do not own the Downs, and that is fully acknowledged in our statement, nevertheless we have invested many hours of effort: we have no desire to destroy something we have helped to create.

I don't actually think this will get "hot" . Now we have said our piece I am sure we will try to get back to normal... or whatever the new normal is going to be. This statement was formed more in sorrow than in anger for most of us I think. For me certainly, sadness overwhelmed utterly any other emotion. I will not repeat what has been said more eloquently by others but since Drigel has mentioned the giraffe in the room, I will say that I will miss Davem desperately. I know he could be like a terrier with a rat with an argument and sometimes it was better to leave him to it ("You can always tell a Yorkshireman - but you can't tell him much"), but he had, has, a gift for getting to the essence. I know I was grateful for this ability to pick out what I was trying to say from the stream of consciousness ramble of what I actually said. His own thoughts were frequently an inspiration.

Mithalwen

[Raynor]

My opinion won't be the popular one. I am not concerned about how things are. For one thing, I saw the numerous public attempts made by the mods to calm things down; and when things didn't calm down, I just kept away from some threads - and that is very unpleasant, since this is supposed to be a place of communication, among other things; if I can't enjoy that here, the rest pretty much loses significance for me. I am not a fan of the powers that be; on other Tolkien sites, I went throat-to-throat with mods, admins or webmasters, in public at that, and I have earned the title of most rebellious. I don't think my perspective has changed; if I see something wrong, I will put it forward, regardless of the position of the one I challenge or of possible consequences to my membership, should it ever be the case. But in this situation, I believe the site policies have been observed in the interest of its members and that the mods will continue to do that.

[Celuien]

A reader of this thread suggested that I should add a few words to clarify my intentions with regard to what has been said here.

First, I want to make sure it's clear that I absolutely do not distrust or dislike the moderators or administrators of this site. They have done a wonderful job keeping the site running. I am grateful for all of their hard work and dedication and mean no disrespect by bringing up this issue. And so I'll take this moment to thank the Downs team for their time and effort.

I was also asked to clarify the goal of making this statement. Though I can't speak for everyone who signed, my own main issues were the following:

1. The previously mentioned wish to clear misunderstandings and any bad feeling lingering on the site.

2. Trying to gain a better understanding of why davem was banned to accomplish number 1 above. It appears that as much answer as can be given has been provided. I still disagree, but it's not my call to make, and it is not my intention or goal to argue over decisions that are already past.

3. I've always been taught that silence is agreement. If a major event such as davem's ban passed without some mention, it would be silent acceptance. I felt like I couldn't go on in good conscience without voicing an opinion. Watching him leave has made me feel like I'm standing at the Grey Havens, watching a ship fade into the horizon, and knowing all the while that something has been lost, never to be regained. I think that, sadly, we're all poorer for davem's absence.

This is not a call for his reinstatement. My understanding from davem is that even if the ban were lifted, he probably wouldn't want to return. And after all of the discussion that has taken place over this, I doubt anyone who has the ability to make the decision would be willing to reverse it. So asking for that would be futile and probably only cause more grief here. But neither could I pretend that this never happened and go on as before without saying something.

In closing, there's probably nothing else that I have to say. My personal goals have been met as much as they are likely to be. I'd like to thank the BW and all of the rest of the team for their patience in allowing this thread to exist and also specifically thank Aiwendil and Mormegil for their replies.

~*~ Celuien ~*~

[Boromir88]

Thank you Celuien, Formendacil, and all those who worked on this to bring it up, as something needed to be done.

I'm going to be straight-forward here. Davem has been a member I have respected on here since I first entered the downs. His posts always got me thinking and always gave my brain a needed jolt. The time and countless posts through the CBC discussions as well as numerous other threads over my 2+ years. So his ban I think is a great loss to the forum (at least from my perspective).

Obviously what's done is done and it's over with. The decision was made and enacted upon. As a former moderator of a forum I know the mods and the admins make the decisions they feel that would be best for their site, and that is no doubt what has been done here. I understand the Mods and Admins have to keep this a friendly and loving place for everyone. But come on, if someone got upset by what was said in that thread (and the others SpM linked to) than I think that person needs to hammer out there own insecurities.

Whatever somebody posts, writes, creates, and shared to the public, you have to be aware that it is up for public scrutinizing. Not just to get praised about how great an idea is, or how much we all agree, what's the point of that? What's the point of ignorance to the opposing side? Davem (and anyone for that matter) had just the right to argue against and go against the ideas in that thread, just as others had the right to argue and debate against davem.

I'll be frank, if what davem did constitutes a ban, especially someone who has been a great contributor to this site for a long period of time, I'm worried where this site is heading down to. I'm not going to mention any names, but I've seen and been involved with members who have been more patronizing than davem in attacks against other members, and they are still around. Heck, I think I have been been more degrading and out of line at times.

I'm worried where this site is heading down to. The Werewolf games and people's critiquing of players 'game-styles' got way out of hand. An attitude of 'you caused us to lose' was created and that's just not healthy. On top of that, a member like davem just doesn't pop up every day. A member with such a wealth of knowledge and a great person to just share a discussion with.

The decision was made, but from my perspective it is only going to harm the site, as a dedicated and thought-inspiring member of the forum has been lost. Which some may think 'well it's only one member,' but think of how many other members saw this and were effected by it? I'm not going to hide anything this place has change and you won't see me around here much anymore. The attitude has changed, the feeling has changed, I think we have this clique-like softy-softy attitude developing in the downs, and I don't like it.

[alatar]

As I write this, I let you know…I’m a dead man. My hope is that, before I get banned, this information reaches someone else. I don’t expect much, but I have learned to exist on little hope. And so I continue.

You see, I’m a mod. That and $2 gets me a cup of coffee. I do, however, have access to the ‘ivory tower’ of the mods and admins, for that is why I was sent. Four others accompanied me, but fell along the wayside. Breaking through the opaque glass ceiling wasn’t an easy accomplishment. To do so I had to volunteer to write a weekly post for the SbS, and I think that it was sheer luck that I have existed here so long, as the SbS escapes the notice of many. Little did I realize until now much of a blessing that could be, like Merry on the Pelennor Fields, sometimes being overlooked is a good thing.

As a mod, I’ve seen many things, and have always kept my eyes open and my mouth shut. Until now, that is. You would not believe what goes on behind the closed doors.

The Barrow Wight, like Ungoliant, feeds off posters and drains them dry when they are banned. He bans a member or two daily at random - whether they are examples of the perfect poster or spam-bots (though the spam-bots, obviously are less filling). This number doesn’t even include those that are banned for not following his daily edict. Remember last Thursday when the BW commanded that every member MUST post using the word “Sam”? A few who either did not get or heed the message got banned that day. I watched as they were cut down like so much wheat. Some of you, keeping watch like I do at times in the lonely hours of the night, may have noticed that the number of members decreases daily. Why do you think that the ‘spiders’ guest list is so short? It’s because there are none! The BW cleverly lures people in, using the whole Tolkien discussion thing as bait, and after a time, sometimes shorter, sometimes longer, the member feels the Sting. Ban! Some thirsts cannot be slaked. Makes sense, now that I’ve pointed that out, doesn’t it? Why else would the BW use his personal fortune to keep this site going? The mods and admins are his virtual slaves; they either do his bidding or ban! They live in constant fear that they too will end up in the virtual gullet of that which cannot be sated.


Please…


Everything above, with the exception of me being a moderator and writing the SbS, is a complete fabrication. Hopefully that was apparent from the first paragraph, but just in case, I’m stating it here. Am I making fun of this situation, this petition? No, I am not. I’m attempting to make a point about an issue that really bothers me as well. That’s something else about which we need to be clear. Though a bystander in some ways, this issue affects me deeply as well, and so I’m taking the time to address it as it makes sense to me. Note that I apologize in advance for my explanations seen below, as they may appear simplistic, obvious, off-topic or otherwise. It’s my way, and I appreciate the freedom that allows me to express myself thus. Anyway…

Before I continue, I want to lay all of my cards on the table and remove my sleeves as well. I have no horse in this race beyond the truth (as far as it can be known) and the Downs. I don’t know any of the actors personally, and I wish them all well. I repped davem in the LotR? thread, where I stated that (from memory) that I thought that he made good points but asked why he continued to post as (1) he and I know we’ve been through all of it before in the Of another world thread and that (2) he should know, from before, that trying to talk someone out of faith, or of Balrog’s wings would be a fruitless effort.

With that out of the way, onto some explanations from a mod.

What do mods do? They identify and keep out the spammers, those humans and computers that want to sell you iPods and whatnot. They also keep an eye on various threads in their domain, trying to keep the post ‘on-topic' and ‘on-Tolkien’ and making sure that the site maintains its family-friendly reputation. Why do we need mods? Why are there rules in the werewolf games? Why are there rules in the RPGs? Play a game without rules, where anything goes, and see how long it lasts or how fun it remains. They also respond to questions and concerns from members. Now, these are my observations (note that I even question myself), but regarding the mods, I see them as no different than any of the other members, with the possible exception that they might have more writing experience, more wisdom and definitely more patient than average. Other than that, the mods and admins are just like you and me. Oh, there is one exception to that. Not only do they post here at the Downs, they volunteer their time freely to do so. Instead of playing with the kids, sleeping or even posting on their favorite signature, the mods take a minute or hour (or more) and look over the threads to make sure everything is simply ‘okay.’

So why is there a "secret" meeting place for the mods (so secret, in fact, that it seems that everyone knows about it...)? If you really want to know, it so that they don’t go nuts. Most of the posts there are of the types, “Hey, I’ll be out of town for a few days. Could someone keep an eye on my section?” and “Here’s yet another spam-bot.” It’s also a place where new mods, like I once was (and still consider myself to be) learn from the old-timers. I had questions about what to do in the SbS, and others answered those there. One can post about posts there, and this allows for ‘off-topic’ posts to be posted, yet not within a thread to avoid starting a bad trend. For example, I may have a question about a direction one of my threads in the SbS, and instead of showing my ignorance in the thread, or making it seem that anyone could ask stupid (no, really stupid) questions in a thread about the Shire scenes, I posted in the secret forum and got direction there. It’s like the ‘planning’ threads of the RPGs, with the exception that it’s less exciting.

Persons have suggested more about the mod forum. Problem is, like in nature, vacuums are abhorred and so we tend to fill them with less than accurate information. You might not believe it, but the mod forum, until just recently, saw less posting than even the SbS, which might see three posts on a busy week. I’d say, “trust me,” but even to me that’s silly. How about, “trust but verify?”

But I’m rambling. Onto the real issue at hand: davem’s banning.

First, let me say again that I bear no ill will against davem. He is neither devil nor saint; he was a very well-read member of the Downs, with knowledge deep in the works of Tolkien and he articulated that learning well. He may have not suffered fools gladly. I note that even davem had his own sacred cows penned up on the farm. And here’s the bomb: I also state up front and unequivocally that davem chose to be banned. Believing that he played no part in his own demise is silly. davem is no fool to be caught unawares.

Anyway, here’s how I saw things (note: apologies in advance to all concerned actors. This is what I read into what others have posted, and usually I read two lines for each one seen on the page):

The Lord of the Bible?, like the ‘Of another world,’ thread before it, discussed religion, never a good topic for me as (1) it attracts me like little else and (2) I just know that some toes are going to get stepped on, and that it always sad because that’s never my intent. Like I said, in the Of another world thread, it happened. There I felt that I may have ‘gone too far’ with some of my posts, and so spoke with some of the other participants, publicly and privately as I wanted them to understand that I was just trying to convey my point in my posts, not attack them or their beliefs. It’s a tough rope walk, and so sometimes I think that it’s just better to avoid the whole discussion. Esty stopped in once and prodded that we were 'off-topic,' but davem and lmp (who represented the two 'sides') let her know that we were just trying to define our terms. davem had disagreed with the modding yet was very respectful. And that was the end of it. Interestingly, though the posts at times were heated and emotional, no mod had to step in as we all either ‘modded’ ourselves, keeping it civil, or left the thread if it got to be too much. It’s just not worth it.

There’s a time and a place for discussion of the near and dear. There’s also tact. You might want to discuss ‘the after life,’ in terms of Tolkien and the real world, but is the best place a funeral? Duh!

So the LotB? thread began. To me it seemed that, after a while, it was getting heated, and that davem’s point, of course well made, was that there was no Christianity in the books. Fair enough, and I’ve made a similar argument. What, I think, made the thread get out of hand was that others still wanted to see Christianity in the books, which to me is fine. I made reference to looking at clouds, as you see in the outside world those things that are in your brain. You see the patterns that are in your thoughts. The very imaginative see even more (listen to kids when they view clouds!). Regardless, if persons wanted to see Christianity in LotR, whether they could back up the opinion or not, it was no skin off of my nose. As I see it, when has anyone’s opinion on the Downs been the last word, or considered to be ex cathedra? Anyway, davem continued to let everyone know that there was no Christianity in the books. Okay. Still, others wanted to see this or that, and maybe their ‘proof’ was completely subjective, but so what? If someone wanted to argue that the elves listened to the Music of the Ainur on iPods, well, have at it. I may say my piece and leave the thread. davem, for some reason, could not leave be. It seemed (again to me) that as he had spoken on the debate and logged the only possible conclusion, that there was no reason to continue, especially for those that disagreed. He, in my view, became impatient with them and maybe thought less of them. Ridicule and satire, like above, can be useful, but is it always wise to smash every gnat with a nuclear sledgehammer? Repeatedly?

The mods asked davem to let be or at least demonstrate some tact; show a little respect or civility. Or maybe move to more fertile topics, as he’d obviously said his piece. Many, like myself and the now infamous SpM, agreed with davem’s points, but thought that he was being overbearing and stifling to the discussion.

Then it took a turn for the worse. davem, in my mind, decided that he should not be corrected and could not be advised. In the mod forum, where the mods discussed the situation, I asked if anyone knew if davem were okay, as this wasn’t like him. Sure, he might smack down a fool, but this was unbecoming.

And, while I’m on the point: regarding members, should we actually require more from those of higher standing etc?

Anyway, from then on it became davem against reason. The various mods and admins, both publicly and privately, asked him to just leave it be as there was no point in his continual impolite postings. One side asked; the other turned a deaf ear.

What do you do when someone, especially someone dear to you, goes astray? Contrary to some opinion, the mods did not want to ban davem. But what could they do, given that davem began spurning the rules of the forum? So it was with sadness that davem was temporarily banned, having been given more consideration than I ever would be given. Maybe, just maybe that would get through to him that all that all of the mods were asking was for some civility. Could the old davem come back please?

Did I note that the content of his posts, for the most part, wasn’t really in question? You can verify that using the ‘Of another world’ thread, as I wouldn’t believe me either.

When the temporary ban was over, which davem would return? The returned davem jumped right back to the same argument with the mods, which again seems to me that davem could not be questioned regarding his posts, could not be questioned about his tone, his intent, etc. Mull that one over. Are any of us beyond questioning? Isn’t that what you are doing with this petition? You are (obviously) free to do so. The mods, sadly in the case of davem, were not. Was it then, “Game on!” for davem? Did he decide to find out just how much weight he carried at the Downs? Maybe, here, he was a god and could do no wrong. Only one way to find out, I guess/assume.

What to do. More warnings, more debate. Like a good leader, the BW stepped in, having read post after post after post about the issue and finally made a decision. It was inevitable, because this obviously is what davem wanted, but still it had to be made. davem was disregarding/taunting mods, the rules, and setting a poor example, which is a shame as, like stated before, he was previously more of someone who you’d want to emulate. And so…

davem was banned. No one cheered. It was a sad day. I felt that he, for some reason, decided to destroy himself. The Downs has lost an informative member. But it doesn’t end there. Note that some of the mods thought that some explanation should be given, though others guessed (rightly) that nothing good would come of it. SpM, more articulate than I will ever be, volunteered to bell that cat. And has paid in spades since his attempt to help the situation. Others have been demonized as well. Now, personally distressed, not by davem’s ban but the repercussions from his explanations trying to help, SpM too, like many of you, feels that his time at the Downs has begun to fade.

Great. From my point of view, that would be 0-2 for the Downs. And we may not have added up all of the losses yet.

One bright point in this mess: In the mod forum, the issue was discussed at length. Now, the topic was davem and what to do. What to do that would be best for the Downs and for davem as well? I cannot believe the care that was given to the issue, considering that the death sentence, if rendered, simply banned someone from participating in the Downs discussion as a specific member. This was no capital crime, davem wasn’t going to jail, his membership fees weren’t being confiscated - the davem moniker would be removed from an internet site that discussed Tolkien. That’s it. Yet the mods still took the issue very seriously as if they were part of some grand jury deciding the fate of the world. Think about that. The mods could have asked, “BW, could you ban davem so that I can get back to crushing the imaginations of the members in my part of the forum?” But they didn’t, and I respect that and it gives me hope.

...

So where do we go from here? I have some suggestions: Continue to ask questions. Keep your eyes open and look to see what’s really going on instead of relying on partisan posts (like this one). Post. Read. Try to relax and enjoy, as life’s short.

Afraid of getting banned? From what I’ve seen, you’d really really have to work at it to be successful. Not sure if the content of your post is verboten? Ask a mod, or better, see if there’s something similar elsewhere in the forum and try to figure it out from there. Thread getting hot? Take a minute and find out why. Take a breath - remember, we’re typing on an internet site regarding a man’s work. Our eternal destiny and that of the world is not going to be decided here.

Also, regarding letting everyone read every jot and twiddle about this issue. Arrogantly, I say, why is that your business? Forum policies are clearly stated. Is your interest in the decision-making process, are you trying to figure out how not to get banned, or is the need to know driven by more voyeuristic needs? And, less arrogantly, if, for some reason you get on the to-be-banned list (not likely), do you want everyone else reading all of your private messages, both sent and received? And, reasonably, there will be, for some, never enough evidence or proof. There is no smoking gun. It wasn’t one post, one comment, one misstep. It was one member willfully careening down a wrong path.

I’m reminded somehow of the Battle of Azanulbizar; that too, like here, was a Pyrrhic victory if anyone can said to be a winner - our hands truly are too small. davem lost, SpM lost, other members not posting for fear or becoming lost themselves, the Downs creeping towards entropy…others trying to help but realizing that, for some wounds, there is only time and good will. With this post, I’ve burned my dead and am now starting the long sad walk home.

Posted in good will to my brother- and sister- members of the Downs.

Signed,
alatar, a mod.

[Mithadan]

*Bang

Don't bother sending Alatar any PMs....

[Saurreg]

I have noticed two trends since Davem has been banned.

The first is that the books discussion forum - the grail of the forum, is on a downward spiral. It is in my opinion that many of the new threads though good, lack the quality of the old in which Davem initiated or in which he played an important catalyst in generating the debates. Ironic isn't it? That only when a member is gone do we recognize the impact he had on us all.

The second trend I noted is that posts in this forum seem to be more muted and less spontaneous than before. Users seem to be accutely aware of the animosity in the air and stricter overseeing of the forums and thus fear to tread carelessly lest they share Davem's fate. I mourn for the innocence lost.

The above observations are of course discerned from my point of view. Take it how you may but I stand by them. If you feel insulted by them in anyway, I apologise for they weren't meant to antagonize. I will be following Boromir88's example and limiting my visit to the downs until the time when I stop all together. After all, what's there left now that the good stuff is gone?

[Diamond18]

I haven't posted on this subject much, and don't intend to, but I suppose since I was one to sign the petition I should make at least somewhat of a comment on the ensuing discussion.

Regarding the private Moderator forum. This is pretty normal for any place that has a group of moderators. I'm not now nor have I ever been a moderator on the 'Downs, but I've been a moderator elsewhere and so I have an idea the kinds of things that are discussed in private moderator threads. I've never had a problem with the fact that the moderators have a forum. In fact, with the old board, you could see the forum though you couldn't access it. So everyone knew it was there... I believe it was called "Mod-in-Gorthad" or some such and the description was something along the lines of "the dry, dusty bones of (grave)site administration." It never chafed me to see this.

Regarding my reasons for signing the petition. The Books forum has been in decline ever since I've been a member here, which is now slightly over four years. These days I rarely visit there and post pretty much never. So the whole "Lord of the Bible" thing went on without my noticing or caring. To me, The Lord of the Rings is a really good work of fiction, and I hang around this site not to dissect it but to have fun in places like Mirth and the RPGs.

But then, through sites like MySpace and LiveJournal, I heard a rather lot of Lalwende and Davem's side of the story and was concerned, and felt that anything which encouraged more discussion on the board and not on other sites, was something for the best. So I'm glad for this thread. It's been interesing reading.

[Thinlómien]

The fact itself that davem was banned was not the (whole) point in the community statement. As for me, one thing that was important and I wanted to criticise is that the public was given no explanation why davem was banned. In a way I understand the argument that mods do not need waste their time to explain every single thing they do to the normal members, but in my humble opinion such a big thing as permanently banning an active and respected member calls for different treatment. If a person people admire or like is banned without giving reasons, it makes people feel empty and they will start asking questions. Yes, there was an explanation in the Coming of age club -thread *a nod of approval towards SPM*, but I wonder how many of the 'downers ever saw it. In my opinion, the information should be provided so that members have a better access to it. The forum is governed by the BW and the mods&admins and it's they who make the decisions, not the common forum members, and we commoners (of course) are mainly satisfied with them making the decisions (they're the mods and admins after all ) , but would gladly hear the reasons behind their bigger decisions.

[Lalwendë]

Well, all I can say is davem's reactions on the Bible thread stemmed from a love of Tolkien and a love of the Downs and the rigorous debate it offered.

Its a fact that in Tolkien academic circles there is huge concern about the 'hi-jacking' of his work by people who wish to assign it a solely Christian agenda, bypassing all other concerns of language, northern myth, and all the other meaty concerns which went into the Tolkien 'pot'. To those who actually knew Tolkien this is wrong and potentially dangerous; they see how the reputation of Lewis has been ruined by such reductive 'criticism' (criticism in inverted commas because its not really criticism in the sense of being truly objective). So davem was talking from the side that is working hard to keep Tolkien from being pigeonholed.

That Bible thread started to go wrong when someone else proposed, in the most patronising way possible (and being patronised is a guarantee that you will start to get annoyed), to create a thread in which only Christian interpretations could be posted about - a form of 'religious apartheid' with no debate allowed on the validity of claims which some of us objected to not only as that would be prejudiced but also facetious (I have to say at this point I know what the reaction would have been if I had tried to create a thread which merely listed all the instances which support Marxism in Tolkien's work, with all challenges strictly verboten).

davem made the mistake of attempting to break the tension with humour (as English people do, its our nature - we cannot cope with either 'fuss' or earnestness), referencing Python, which only resulted in more flame. The reason davem was asked to stop what he was saying was because his 'tone', one he used all the time, was here used when the topic at hand was religion (now I see how right people are when they say religion is often the root of war - no more will I view it as a benign influence). Had it been feminism, environmentalism, buddhism or any other -ism or -ity would anybody have been jumping up and down and telling us to stop being 'offensive'? I suspect not (in fact I know not - new threads on Buddhism and WWII analogies have been thoroughly savaged on here, and there is no more evidence to support LotR as a specifically Christian book than there is to support it as having Buddhist or WWII metaphors).

Oh, and then to underline exactly what davem had been so afraid of happening, a decline into the kind of poor parallel picking we often see from young newbies who have not read the books happened, and we had some very shaky evidence for LotR being 'Christian' posted. Which again he responded to with typical English humour, which I'm afraid is sarcastic. Now we all know how sarcastic davem could be and has been for a long time, and he was most certainly not alone amongst high up Downers either. Alas, he chose the holy cow of religion.

So there you go. He did it because he loves Tolkien and loved the Downs. Unfortunately some people could not see that because maybe they love other things more than Tolkien or the Downs.