For a drearier, scarier, better ‘downs.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It would be a drastic measure, but why not create a fourth discussion board, for us 'Wizard Pupils'?

I like this idea; I would also propose that in this particular subforum any book thread can be started here, even if it's not a new one, and that refferences to other threads shoud be discouraged.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I like this idea; I would also propose that in this particular subforum any book thread can be started here, even if it's not a new one, and that refferences to other threads shoud be discouraged.

Aren't you afraid that such a subforum would rather resemble the kid's table at Thanksgiving??

"Oh look, it's little Noobie. He's not quite ready to sit with the adults is he? Go sit at the other table little boy, and you can listen to us talk. Someday you may be able to join us! Oh, what's that you're asking? No dear, don't worry, nobody will make you think about things that are too big and tricky for your little brain. And what's that? Oh no no, bless your little heart, no -- if you are having a conversation that we at the grown up table have had before we won't try and talk to you ourselves! We'll let you have your little fun while we smile at your simple little heart. Bless you, now run along!"

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.

Ditto. Having extra seats at the adults' table was the best thing ever.

Anyway, don't we have a "Novices and Newcomers" forum for those sorts of things?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Ditto. Having extra seats at the adults' table was the best thing ever.

Anyway, don't we have a "Novices and Newcomers" forum for those sorts of things?

Originally Posted by Fordim

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.

Yes, and having been a teacher, never patronise a youngster by sending them off to do something 'suitable for their age'. Because you can bet it won't be. The same will go for someone who doesn't feel like they know all that much.

Links to other threads is in some cases possibly that someone is being idle and either cannot or just cannot be bothered to re-type all the info they or someone else posted before. I've done it many a time. Or it could just be them being helpful. But I think the problem is some people feel afraid of posting which is very different. Esty was always very encouraging in the CbC threads and I remember giving new people a nod there if they had made the effort to get involved because I remembered feeling left out myself.

[Boromir88]

I, for one, hate sitting at the kid's table. Even when I was a kid. I would hate to make it seem like we were asking peopel to do that now.~Fordim

And it would further widen the rift that has seemingly popped up.

Jenny, I can see where the feeling of 'casting aside' comes if you are directed to another thread. Sort of like, 'Here, that's the discussion go there if you want.' In the past this might be something that happened, but there wouldn't be any harm if we start doing things differently now.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Boromir,

Since you can start a new thread on any substantive topic, whether or not it's been addressed before, do you think this would still be a problem?

A poster could put it up in Books or N&N, whatever they felt more comfortable doing.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

One other comment.... One of my concerns is actually not the Books forum but Novices and Newcomers. I can remember when I first came to the Downs that there were some pretty spirited discussions in that forum. In fact, I've never fully understood what's the precise distinction between topics in Books and N&N. There are some opinion questions that don't belong in Books, but some N & N posts definitely address more concrete book questions and can generate discussion. I do remember being hesitent to post in Books at first because I felt I didn't "know enough". N & N was a way for me to get my feet wet and feel comfortable with posting.

That obviously was far before my time. In the half year I'm here, I associated 'Novices and Newcomers' mainly with greeting new members, assigning things to Mordor and discussing topics of a lower level.

More recently, N & N is not used very much. I suspect the shift came about when Mirth became a more important forum. The old discussions in Novices and Newcomers kind of wilted away. Rather than starting a "new" forum, couldn't we try to do move with Novices and Newcomers in terms of lively book discussions, but ones where you don't have to prepare yourself by reading ten journal articles and doing five drafts of your post?

The new forum was just an idea. It's purpose was definitely not to create a kid's table, but to have a forum that was between the mighty 'Books' and 'N&N -the way I saw it', where you can discuss Tolkien on an intermediate level, just like Child describes it. I didn't mean to forbid a thread to stray from the level it maybe was intended to be, up or down. I mean, we often see a thread start with a more or less stupid question, and then suddenly it turns into a scholar debate of several pages. I hoped this could give the Books a spark, even though it's maybe not actually posted in there (I don't think it's important where the interesting discussion take place, as long as they do). I had nothing remotely like a caste system in mind.
A revival of N&N would fix my concern perfectly. Would it be a first step to move the 'Assign to..'-threads to the 'The Barrowdowns'-forum? They do discuss neither dragons, nor wizards, nor hobbits after all.


Of course people who post links to old threads only intend to be helpful, and they are. However, sometimes, not always, but especially when there are several of these links at the beginning of a thread, it creates a feeling of "Now please read through all these threads before you dare to post your uninformed opinion on this new one!": Death of thread almost inevitable. This is of course unintended, but, well... it's a difficult matter...

[JennyHallu]

In my opinion, if you don't want to take the time to re-type your old, tired opinion again, but merely link to it, then why do you feel you must participate in a new thread? Links to old threads DO kill the new ones. Unless the link is to concrete and unassailable FACTS that were offered in a previous post (and if so, the link should be to that post, not the thread where it can be found) I feel they're inappropriate.

And I do feel that more threads should be archived. Look in the archive forum: the Barrow-Wight has created an excellent index, which I think makes it much easier to find exactly what you're looking for. I think threads should be archived, and all in the same place. The RPG archives serve only a specific purpose, and it makes sense that they be separate, but why is there a Books archive and Haudh-en-Ndengin?

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that's what Jenny meant to say when she said some of the posters were "intimidating". Obviously, I'm not actually afraid of running into SPM (unless he's a werewolf. SPM is a dangerous werewolf ) but when he takes the time to make a long, thought out post it just happens that I get the feeling I'm in way over my head.

Hehe. I suspect that the only thing that is intimidating about my posts is their length.

My first post here was in a thread which I created asking why the Eagles were not used to convey the Ring to Mordor. I was directed to some previous discussions, read them and summarised my findings. Hey, I'm a loyer, what do you expect? The thread, I believe, proceeded no further.

I have never read any of the HoME series. I started the first book and, I am afraid to admit, lost interest.

I had read LotR only about three times, and only once in about 20 years, when I started posting. I had never read the Silmarillion (tried it when I was 14 but gave up about halfway through the first chapter), although I have read it since - once.

A large part of my Tolkien knowledge is derived from having read posts here over the 4 years or so that I have been here, and also from being an avid participator in the Quiz forums for about 2-3 years of that time.

All of which is meant to say - if you do not feel sufficiently confident in your book knowledge to participate in Books discussions, then read. Read the books themselves obviously (I probably would have never read the Silm had I not come here - I'm very glad that I did). But also read the existing threads. This is a place to learn from as well as for expressing your own thoughts, views and opinions. Read those old threads. Read those threads that are linked to. You will not just learn about Tolkien, but a whole range of other stuff discussed incidentally to his works along the way. You will see different styles of debate, different ways of constructing an argument. And you will learn the dark art of verbosity too, if you read my posts.

I am afraid that I am one of those who sometimes posts links to old threads in new topics. I apologise if that is off-putting. It is natural to want to do so, I find, when one recalls a discussion and some interesting points which were made which might be relevant to the new discussion and of interest to those involved in it. That doesn't mean that the topics are the same, or have been approached in the same way, and it should not be taken as a direction to read the old thread(s) before proceeding with the new discussion. That is not the intention. Not mine, at least.

I am against segregation of topics by experience or knowledge or whatever. These things cannot be measured and, just because one person is less well-read or less familiar with a particular subject, it does not follow that they cannot add value to the discussion.

The Books forum is a big forum. There is room there for all kinds of discussions there. They do not all have to require a degree from the University of Tolkien to participate. Far from it. Yes, it is a place for serious discussion. And, yes, there are some very serious dicussions which draw upon a wide range of Tolkien (biographical and academic) resources. But there is also room for discussion of more "factual" matters, relating to specific events or characters, for which a good working knowledge of the relevant book should suffice. And there is room for a whole lot of other Tolkien-related discussion too.

No one should be afraid to start threads there, post on threads there which take their fancy and, perhaps most importantly, read threads there (especially if you do not quite feel ready to participate). And, if you feel intimidated by a thread, or feel that it is not for you, look around for another, perhaps even one of those old, dusty threads. Tolkien-related discussion should not be exclusive, not to anyone who is seriously interested in his works and in discussing them. If you get something wrong, what does it matter? We have all done that. Just learn from it and step back in.

As for starting new threads, I would endorse what Child said. Save in the limited circumstances she describes, new threads on subjects that have been discussed before will not be closed down. Threads can be merged here, and sometimes there are, but rarely in the Books forum I believe.

As for the Novices & Newcomers forum, in addition to the kinds of thread already mentioned, I have always understood it to be a place for less serious, more "trivial" discussion (and I do not mean that in a demeaning way). Threads such as: "Who is your favourite Elf?" and the like. Not everyone enjoys those kinds of discussion, but many do (and they can be quite a good way for newcomers to ease themselves into the Downs).

Did I mention that I am verbose ...

[Durelin]

I'd just like to note that, pretty much the only reason I don't spend too much time in "The Books" is because I often have a headache, and trying to discuss intelligently is just beyond me.

Really, I think that it has mostly to do with just how much time and energy people have, and often they don't have quite enough to participate in "The Books," particularly when, as Saucepan Man has pointed out about his posts, the posts are often very very long.

And there's also just so much to do on the 'Downs! If people find themselves bored just staring at it, they really should join a RPG or something...

[mormegil]

Jenny I have to say that it is silly that you are intimidated by many of the book threads...with that being said I also am intimidated. So yes, I am silly too. Often times I feel rather unsubstantial and not constructive to the current arguement. I have found myself, more than once, drafting up a post only to delete the whole thing and never post it due to my feelings. I'm often worried about my grammar and language. Sometimes I fail to understand some of the subtle points that are made. In fact I consider myself to be one of the least intelligent regulars on the downs.

So I propose a deal be made: You, I, and any other who feel intimidated about posting on the books begin to do so and ignore our trepidation. Those who are the old timers and Tolkien scholars be patient with us, I feel that you are but it's reassuring to emphasize the point.

I feel that sometimes my points are valid and well taken, other times I feel that I have good points but I'm not articulate like so many other here. So I pledge I will try harder and do better.

[Child of the 7th Age]

There is also another issue. It is frowned upon, and with good reason, to open up a thread discussing issues that have been talked about already. But I’ve seen a few (and mind you, you can probably count them with the fingers of your hand) good looking new threads that were quickly referred to an old, existing, dead thread and died as well. I am not implying that we should open a new thread for every little idea that pops up in our collective minds, but…

I wanted to reply quickly to this one point in Farael's original post, even though the discussion is now addressing many other topics and ideas.

There actually is no policy that says a poster can not put up a new thread on any topic he or she wants, even when an older thread exists. When I first came to the Downs, the reverse was true. If a person put up a new thread on an already existing topic, then the new thread was closed down and they were directed to the older thread. A few years ago, the Barrow-wight changed his policy on that to encourage further discussions on topics. The only exception is if the new thread is an exact duplicate of another that people are actively posting on. Then the later one would be closed.

So feel free to put up new threads on topics of interest or, alternately, to bring up an older thread and continue posting on it. Either way works. You definitely don't have to wait until a thread is "archived" to post another thread on that same general topic.

I think the reason this misconception exists is that helpful posters, mod and non-mod alike, often put in a link to an older post on a similar topic if one exists. Perhaps that "kills" the discussion even though it's not intended to.

One other comment.... One of my concerns is actually not the Books forum but Novices and Newcomers. I can remember when I first came to the Downs that there were some pretty spirited discussions in that forum. In fact, I've never fully understood what's the precise distinction between topics in Books and N&N. There are some opinion questions that don't belong in Books, but some N & N posts definitely address more concrete book questions and can generate discussion. I do remember being hesitent to post in Books at first because I felt I didn't "know enough". N & N was a way for me to get my feet wet and feel comfortable with posting.

More recently, N & N is not used very much. I suspect the shift came about when Mirth became a more important forum. The old discussions in Novices and Newcomers kind of wilted away. Rather than starting a "new" forum, couldn't we try to do move with Novices and Newcomers in terms of lively book discussions, but ones where you don't have to prepare yourself by reading ten journal articles and doing five drafts of your post?

P.S. Great minds think alike....I've just cross posted with Formendacil who said the same thing in a lot fewer words.