For a drearier, scarier, better ‘downs.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, Valier, I hope you will post. You would benfit and so would the rest of us by getting your ideas. But you're not the only one who needs to remind themselves. I'm often in the same situation.

Plus, Durelin has a good point. Book posts are not only a matter of willingness and knowlege but also of the time available to each poster. Since my first commitment is to RPGs and my second commitment is to making sure my family doesn't starve or go without clean socks , that unfortunately leaves less time for Book posts. Still, it's good to be reminded how important it is to post in Books.

I also remember when I first came to the BD, I was a little cowed by the Books forum, even though I had been reading Tolkien for many years. I picked my spots to post with care. I knew more about hobbits than any other topic so I would post on those threads and pass over anything that had to do with Silm or HoMe. I guess that would be my main advice for someone who'd like to do more in Books but who still feels a little out of place. Everyone tends to have certain topics near and dear to their hearts. Search out those questions or even post one yourself, and then dig in. I honestly think that, with only a handful of exceptions, many posters--even so-called "old timers"--had some trepidations about posting in Books when they first joined the site. Believe me, you're not alone. I can still be overawed by the back and forth of those folk who have training and expertise in literary criticism. But the only way to get over that hesitation is to start posting.

I also think the chapter by chapter discussions are a great way to learn to do a "serious" post. Some of the best posts there are people giving their personal impression of the material they've read. At the same time, you can keep reading and gradually ease into more rigorous debate.

[Thinlómien]

I would class myself as a "intermediate member" by knowledge, yet I see no point in an intermediate forum. I have even started a few threads in the books (yet some of them would have belonged to the N&N perhaps) and never have been afraid of posting on the forum even with my knowledge that is lesser than many other members'. The books does not contain only the topics like "Lord of the Bible" it also has those "medicore" threads, which I would classifyb for example the "LotrR labelled racist" -thread, "Do ents lay eggs" (which coukld be classified as a novice thread) and such. The Books is not some scary forum where only the most knowledgeable debate on thgeir high seats.

One reason I feel the books is slowing down is also that even if people start topics, there is not enough people interested about the subject who wish to comment and the threads die out.

I forgot the third thing I wanted to say. well, i'll get back when I remember it...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Behold my first Books post. It's also my first thread.

It's not very impressive, is it? Hardly what you'd call 'intimidating'. The people I found intimidating at the time were those who knew more than I did, which included practically everyone. At one point Sharku cowed me just by posting an extract from a dictionary, which I took to show a preternatural knowledge of etymology. Ridiculous, isn't it? Most of what I know about Tolkien I've learned either from members here or from books that they mentioned or recommended, and I still couldn't keep up with people like obloquy and Saulotus if they were active.

The language in books doesn't have to be academic. A lot of the more knowledgeable members happen to feel more comfortable in a scholarly idiom, either by training or because their professions require them to write formal English. It doesn't mean that nobody wants to see a more relaxed style, it's just that in some of the discussions precision of expression is very important, and I at least find it hard to be informal and precise at the same time. The important thing in Books is that the thinking should go deeper and be based on more knowledge than it has to be in N&N. If you've got a really interesting point, nobody will care about split infinitives or dangling prepositions: it's the quality of the ideas that counts.

Most importantly, we've all been new. Everyone has to make a first post and everyone has had to get used to posting on the forum. More to the point, everyone is a little intimidated by the challenge of Books because it's a demanding forum. It always has been for as long as I've been a member. If you can rise to the challenge it's a very rewarding place to post, and if you can't then nobody wants to stop you reading it. It's certainly cheaper than buying the mass of additional Tolkien literature that's out there. When I first arrived I didn't think I could make a valuable contribution, but to my amazement there were those who disagreed. You never know what the reaction will be until you try, unless of course your shiny new thread is 'who's the best dwarf?' but you know about that already.

I know I've been absent for a long time, but even back when I was here every day I didn't post on every Books thread. There have always been those subjects on which I can't comment, but fortunately there's usually someone who can. If you pick your ground as Child suggested you can ease yourself into the discussions and your knowledge will catch up. I spend a lot of time tracking down quotations, and it can be fun. Sometimes I forget all about the post and instead get caught up in a passage I'd only looked up to check my facts. That's one of the things that only happens to me when I join in on Books.

What I'm trying to say is give Books a try. The worst that can happen is that your post embarrasses you much later on, as that one of mine above does whenever I read it.

[Holbytlass]

I, too, feel that I don't have enough to participate. But I do feel like I have come a long way. It took me over 2 years to realize that people want to debate and talk about their differing opinions-I used to be one of those posters that said "everyone does things differently, can't we get along". I'm pretty sure I have one of those posts in Fordim's Canonicity thread. -at myself.

Even though I do feel like I'm in over my head I like reading more experienced posters, it makes me think. I shall have to try Fea's ideas of asking questions.
I don't want the tables to be turned and make those who are more informed or make longer posts feel like they have to walk on eggshells and worry if they are upsetting, degrading, or insulting to posters only because they happen to know more. I don't want them to stop posting.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I don't think I've ever felt intimidated by the more knowledgeable Downers. Revere them? Perhaps. Respect them? Definitely. I don't think I ever felt intimidated. Even in my early days when I was a blundering spotty little 16 year old with only a basic knowledge of Tolkien, the more learned members seemed like something to aspire to, rather than to fear.

These days I, admittedly, spend most of my time in the mirth forums. I do occasionally wander into Books to add a point, say something I think is interesting or to point something out that I've noticed. All in the hope of stirring up further discussion.

Weather or not I succeed is a different matter...

[mormegil]

I saw this today and found it appropriate and funny.

[IMG][/IMG]

Not that this is a reflection of the downs but it's still funny.

[Boromir88]

Since you can start a new thread on any substantive topic, whether or not it's been addressed before, do you think this would still be a problem?~Child

I was echoing Fordim's concerns about creating a new forum as in appearing like a 'kiddy table...' and further increasing the feeling of 'intimidation.' What you've brought up about N & N forum is definitely a good point. I forgot the purpose of that forum, as it's mainly seemed to just be a place of introductions and answering the easy questions...not a place to have the 'great depth of search' as the books. But as I look back at some of my earliest posts and threads, most of them were in N & N and had sparked some solid discussions. Getting back to that in the Newcomer's forum would certainly be good.

I also think that there is this conception that in the books you have to post these long thought out humorgous posts in order to get noticed. I disagree, a perfect example I think happened recently with Laitoste's post, in this thread. A short, sweet post, yet got right to the heart of the matter and spurned some discussion. Your posts don't have to be long and drawn out, mine tend to be because I ramble and sort of 'build up' the post, instead of striking right out the heart and getting right into it. So, don't be scared to post something that's comparitvely much shorter in length, if it answers the topic, gets some questions to spark a discussion...then by all means post it.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Child

I guess that would be my main advice for someone who'd like to do more in Books but who still feels a little out of place. Everyone tends to have certain topics near and dear to their hearts. Search out those questions or even post one yourself, and then dig in.

Yes, exactly!

I think people want to post in the Books so badly that they try to force things. Sometimes when people think they are "intimidated", the actual root of the problem is that the topic simply isn't one they'd like to discuss. And let me tell you, you are rarely going to feel adequate when focusing on something you don't care much about. Arguments and points have a tendency to just slide right over your head, not because you are dumb, but because you're not that tuned in to the topic.

Just look for a thread that has an opening post that interests you. If you don't like what you're reading, then move on. Don't sit and dwell on it, or try and think of how you can post on the thread.

Originally Posted by Fea

Think of those 'intimidating' folks. Have you ever interacted with them outside of Books? Bet they weren't so scary when you played Werewolf with them, were they?

Speak for yourself, Fea- I'm absolutely terrifying when I play Werewolf.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Speak for yourself, Fea- I'm absolutely terrifying when I play Werewolf.

Hush up, love, you know you're just a pup. A sheep in wolf's clothing, if you insist on keeping up the illusion.

Hey, Squatter, my first Books post was also my first thread...

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but I've yet to explore all of this site. In the Fellowship of the Ring, Aragorn finds a "single pale-green jewel." He identifies it as a beryl (ie: an emerald), but emeralds are not pale green. In general stone-lore, beryls are historically elf-stones and are associated with the merry folk of the wood. However (this is where my question comes into play) a peridot IS a pale green jewel. In basic stone-lore, peridots were always used to ward off terrors of the night, and wraiths. The stone was placed on the bridge after Glorfindel dispelled the Nazgul, thus causing me to believe that the stone was, in fact, a peridot, and that Aragorn wrongly identified it. Is my conclusion correct, or have I missed an important fact?

Let's see... Shortly following my [over-formal/pretentious/embarassing] post:

the phantom linked me to a site showing that my color logic was pretty much completely bad.

burrahobbit gave me a seven word response telling me that my logic, again, was faulty.

'Vana posted a dictionary quote and I pretty much assumed I was surrounded by people who can directly quote Webster without effort at any given time.

Keeper of Dol Goldur asked if most people of the Third Age would even have any clue about the fundamental differences of gemstones that look alike.

So I ended the thread firmly of the opinion that, for all that I was brilliant, wise, awesome, incredible, I was totally out of my league and that I should just sit in a corner for the rest of my life.

[Durelin]

Since we're going over embarrassing threads and moments (oh, and to think there's an entire thread dedicated to that! Goes to show how smart we people actually are... ), perhaps a brief 'guide' to a good "The Books" topic, or any type of good topic, would be quite nifty.

Here's one question to start off that I've wondered about: is it better for the topic to be more general, or more specific?

(I would say a good "The Books" post, but I think that's far too difficult, since that could be so many things.)

[Mithadan]

What I sometimes do is sort of plot out an issue, thinking about what I want to ultimately say, but in my initial post starting the thread I will merely give a general overview, state a position and solicit comments before pouring out my whole theory or interpretation. Sometimes less is more. If you write a thesis for your first post members may be less likely to respond thinking the issue is fully addressed. Alternatively, members might be intimidated by a lengthy initial post, particularly if you are planning on using quotes or referring to less common texts.

[Beleg Cuthalion]

I find everone's comments here interesting, because they hit very close to home. I’ve always had that problem on forums, though perhaps I don’t quite give this impression here, I’m a member on a number of different forums, and I almost never post anything anywhere. The reason being that I feel inadequate, or I could not possibly make any worth while contribution to any topic, and I almost always think that, like in this post right now is not really to the point of this thread. It’s probably why I haven’t been here in a year. Sorry I must be starting to sound cofuseing, I’m hardly an academic and all the very intelligent people that seem to inhabit these Tolkien forums just make one feel rather inferior. IMHO

-Beleg

>>--->

[Kath]

Agreed Beleg. When I first joined this site I did sit in the corner and watch because I was terrified of looking stupid or being yelled at by a mod. It took me a good year to realise that, though there are some people on here that come only for the literary discussion, most 'Downers take part in all areas of the site. And if you ever want to get over your fear or a particular person then play werewolf with them, because I guarantee that after you spend three days building a case against them and getting them lynched they'll be more scared of you than you are of them. Though, my first game with Sauce I didn't dare say a word against him to start with, damn irrational fears ...