Melkor is the saviour of mankind

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Thanks for this - with what you wrote, you made it clear to me. I understand now why it is like that. In this we see a concept that is quite foreign to Christianity, you say. Actually, not: this is Christianity in its very definition. "Estel" as "fool's hope", I am pretty sure, is Tolkien's projection of the Christian hope to this secondary world.

Okay, just to make clear answer to the question which was raised. Let's continue with the primary subject of this topic.

I would like to get back on topic as well, but I must say you misunderstood my point about Christianity. What I was referring to is the idea of Mankind's "place" and "duty" in the world. In Christian tradition, humans were to be the stewards of a currently perfect planet. They could upkeep it, but couldn't do much to make it a better place, since it was already Unfallen. Thus the only direction humans, and the planet they ruled, could really go was down. But Men as presented in Tolkien's world were different: they had the potential to improve an already-Marred planet. If anything, the race of Men was much more in the situation of Christ than in that of Adam and Eve. Furthermore, other sentient races (not to mention animals, plants, etc.) would benefit from their deeds, and not just themselves. Men "let other people down" by shirking this duty. To me, this makes the idea of the "Fall of Man" a much more powerful one because, unlike Adam, they could have ennobled the entire planet.

Furthermore, estel does certainly share similarities to Christian faith. But it too is quite different; it is much more uncertainly based. It seems to come much more from within rather than being a blessing by God to the "totally depraved" soul. The hope that grounds Christianity was anchored on a God (JHVH) who was said to have interacted many times with his people (the Jews) through their history, mostly for their improvement. But Eru does not reveal himself to his Children like JHVH does. He does not give them nearly as much of a platform on which to base their trust. Christianity had centuries of Jewish tradition and hope backing it; the Messiah had been expected and hoped for for a very long time. But the word was mum on whether Eru would ever reveal himself to the Children in the world. This was a foreign concept to the Elves until Andreth mentioned it in the Athrabeth. Estel is a lot closer to the "leap of faith" that Kierkegaard (who actually did not like proofs of God's existence, believing such things to be antithetical to the extreme faith we are called to) spoke of. You have to put your all into accepting it, because it is such a difficult doctrine to believe, since there is little or no evidence from the past that it will be rewarded.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

What I was referring to is the idea of Mankind's "place" and "duty" in the world. In Christian tradition, humans were to be the stewards of a currently perfect planet. They could upkeep it, but couldn't do much to make it a better place, since it was already Unfallen.

Ah, yes, I understand now. Sorry. That's right what you say.

...One idea... if we take Middle-Earth really as "lost records of true ancient history", then this is the age when God/Eru did not yet talk to people... then after some time, when the Men are not able to "unmarr" Arda, he intervenes - he calls an individual, Abram, and then the nation of Israel, and later he reveals himself to the whole world in the person of Christ... and thus, although the Men do not seem to be fit to "repair" the world, through Christ it is reached. It seems to me like fulfiling the promise to Abram: "and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed", which in the New Testament is explained as it was meant to be Christ; so the "vision of Men as the agents of the 'unmarring' of Arda" may also refer to Christ Now this would make perfect sense

But enough of this, we still are not returning to the main topic... well, at least, I hope, we have not gone too far from it...

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ah, yes, I understand now. Sorry. That's right what you say.

...One idea... if we take Middle-Earth really as "lost records of true ancient history", then this is the age when God/Eru did not yet talk to people... then after some time, when the Men are not able to "unmarr" Arda, he intervenes - he calls an individual, Abram, and then the nation of Israel, and later he reveals himself to the whole world in the person of Christ... and thus, although the Men do not seem to be fit to "repair" the world, through Christ it is reached. It seems to me like fulfiling the promise to Abram: "and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed", which in the New Testament is explained as it was meant to be Christ; so the "vision of Men as the agents of the 'unmarring' of Arda" may also refer to Christ Now this would make perfect sense

But enough of this, we still are not returning to the main topic... well, at least, I hope, we have not gone too far from it...

Of course. That is, I strongly believe, the way Tolkien viewed his constructed world as interacting with ours (especially when one considers the "Old Hope" idea discussed in the Athrabeth). That is not the way I see it, but I do think it's a bit nifty that Tolkien crafted Arda to fit that way. However, I am quite glad he left it open for interpretation (frankly, Eru and JHVH are just way too different for me to be able to see them as the same being).

Right. Back to the topic!